Another friendship bites the dust

[SapphosRock]

Apparently it has come to some friends' attention that I have radical views and they want nothing more to do with me. I'm now blocked.

This the second time this has happened with people I was close to.

Trying not to mind, but I do mind. We had lots of fun things planned and I'm mourning the loss of the friendships.

What have other people done in this situation?

Same. Since losing the trans ideologists in my life I actually feel freer. No more policing what I say, watching every word for tone, context or possible offensiveness. One friend described me as looking 10 years younger and taller from not carrying the burden of policing myself. I’ve found out a lot of my real friends actually agree with me on most things so I have somewhere to discuss and debate ideas with.

Deletion post on the debate thread says June has de-registered.

🤷‍♀️

thsts taking no debate to a whole new level there.

Hm. I think if someone is in that fragile a state that they can't stand to even consider a friend's views might be genuinely held then ... I don't know, Saph. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

I feel genuinely sorry for them; and it's shit for you.

Thats seems to be a wee bit of a slash and burn approach 😳

Just a bit @TheClogLady I didn’t think I was that scary…. 😀

I rather believe we’ve had a real-time demonstration of how ‘no debate’ manifests this evening!

Oh. It was really quite similar to Lavery, after all.

The overconfidence of someone who soon realises that they simply do not have compelling evidence that will withstand public eyes is not unusual.

All they have is emotional manipulation that usually resorts to ‘shaming’ others. They make derogatory remarks and hypocritical accusations that are too often just projection. If any person felt that confident that they would cockily offer to debate, they would do it in public. So others could see their argument and be convinced.

But that never works in reality.

Sadly, the episode will be told from ‘Junebugs’ perspective that they were ‘piled on’ and ‘bullied’ despite their derogatory and accusatory posts, amongst those that sought to shame women who disagreed.

I think the very fact they could not see the dehumanisation of the term used by ‘twitterengineer’, and the ridiculousness that was that thread where a transitioned male declared they made better women than females, made it perfectly clear that they were all too happy to shame and denigrate women who didn’t agree with them.

It really is plus ca change.

I am sorry to hear sappho that your friend didn’t really even contact you to discuss. It is often the lack of closure that makes it harder.

Just be strong in the knowledge that most sane people know that a man can never be a woman. They're just careful who they express their views to. I haven't met one person who believes the twaw bollocks ( literally 😂 )

Just wanted to post sympathy to Sapph (rather tedious to have to scroll past the openly dishonest posts to have to do so but does reinforce how dishonesty is a common factor here).

If they were honest they could've discussed it with you. I think so much of this reaction comes from fear of examining one's own views.

Thank you for demonstrating once again that TRAs have no argument and can't debate

I'm just curious what you imagine would be 'in' it for us; to change your mind ? about anything?
Well frankly that doesn't seem likely... I'm an atheist but I've never once rang a doorbell trying to talk someone out of their beliefs why would I mind what they believe?

When it comes to trans ideology I've heard people say things / read things that I agree with completely and have agreed with for decades.

I've also heard people say things / read things and gone "well that's rather sexist, and I don't agree." or "crikey that's actually really homophobic I can't agree with that"

so I would say this to you as food for thought. People are treated differently because of their sex and those differences fall into two categories; sexist bullshit and proportionate means of achieving legitimate aims. I'm all for people ignoring and challenging the sexist bullshit, I'm happy and perfectly prepared for society to debate and consider carefully whether a particular rule or exclusion falls into category one or category two; but I can't agree that there is never any significance whatsoever to the sex of a person. Do you think that anything ever falls into category 2 and if so what?

Ah Sappho, I’m sorry - & I hope it doesn’t unsettle things with your wife/partner (sorry, I can’t remember if you’re married, just that you’re not of a mind with her on this). I also hope they don’t go stirring trouble for you with any mutual friends you may have.

You are being treated as an apostate, essentially, which really doesn’t cast your former friends - nor indeed those who endorse gender ideology generally - in a good light.

On a much lighter note, this thread being full of “GCs” “pivoting” has me wondering about this newly-discovered netball position we apparently all play identify as. I feel very bad about having been distracted, but honestly, the endless barging in to here to announce an utter incomprehension of female socialisation is really quite embarrassing. Oh course we pivot & we make swift passes. And running with balls is quite beyond our ken.

People want to be nice and supportive and definitely don't want to be seen as 'phobic' about anything. Unfortunately in this debate it's impossible to be anything other than 100% supportive of gender ideology or a horrible terf. I think a lot of people get a shock when they realise that raising what seems like a perfectly reasonable question about all this catapults them out of being a good person to being 'evil'. Your friends probably have some cognitive dissonance over this already but are not quite ready to address it so have doubled down and made sure they don't have to think about it. Give them time though. I'm sure questions will begin to go around in their heads. It took me a while to look at things from every angle, explore every possible way to make everyone happy before I saw reality. I'm sure at least some of your friends get over the initial panic response and will be starting to think.

I've had people tell me that being a trf is unacceptable, who then promptly reveal through what they say that they'd be considered a trf by many. It's largely tribal, not intellectual.

Seems like you didn't look out for quicksand. Sad.

Oh god this.

My "progressive" (actually very straight-laced, middle of the road type) friend to her credit agreed to read what JKR had actually said. She couldn't find anything she disagreed with but couldn't leave what she perceived to be the "in tribe". So she decided JKR was extra mean for hiding her transphobia behind such reasonable words.

Yes. I have come across this too.

Friends who start off saying how absolutely they are ‘not like those people’, when they start explaining their views are ‘those people. They just never realized what the demands from the extreme activists were.

Femm, that is so sad. I hope that someone will be able to show her how badly wrong she's got this. My sister has disowned me for being GC, but she has always been difficult to be around, very black and white and righteous in her far-left of Labour way. So in some ways the radio silence is a relief. But a mum is different.

Tribalism: 100%.

The monstering of 'terf' has created a false division of us and them. The rules are vague, nebulous and constantly shifting. It's a fantastic way to control people- keep them constantly uncertain of whether they are in the 'good ' group or not. Squabble endlessly about the arcane rules. Have examples of what happens to those who transgress. Punish apostates. Forbid questions. Make flags. Make meaningless slogans.

I find it’s best to get it out of the way and describe myself as a ‘bit terfy’ to new acquaintances now.

it usually results in a good conversation, and means I don’t have to worry about someone finding out and assuming it means I’m actually hateful, rather than protective of children’s bodies and women’s spaces and services.

It also takes a lot of the impact away from what has become a powerful pejorative, ‘of course I’m a bit terfy, no one really believes humans can change sex!’ is radically different to ‘Don’t talk to her, she’s a TERF’

The daft thing is that half the stuff TRA bang on about is stuff the actual trans-identifying people I know IRL disagree with - like males in Women’s sports.

Exactly. Even loads of trans people are a ‘little bit terfy’.

Almost everyone is a bit terfy when it comes to romantic relationships!