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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Primark to reinstate women and girls only changing rooms

246 replies

Handyweatherstation · 30/09/2022 17:18

They may be starting to get the message.

corporate.primark.com/en/newsroom/corporate-news/important-changes-to-our-fitting-rooms-in-the-uk/n/98cec44a-542f-40b9-8a88-618831aeddc0

OP posts:
ImherewithBoudica · 30/09/2022 20:42

VroomVrooom · 30/09/2022 20:39

If it does not apply equally respectfully and carefully to all females as well as TQ+ people, it's not ok.

What does that look like?

What, being equally respectful and careful to females as TQ+ people?

What does that look like?

I know, it's hard to imagine at this point..... it means providing single sex, female only spaces that biologically male people will not enter regardless of their self identification of their gender or degree of transition. Knowing that otherwise those females have no access to anything, so that male TQ+ people have full freedom of preferred choice from everything.

Seriously: does meeting TQ+ needs necessitate punishing, excluding and subordinating the interests of biological females?

VroomVrooom · 30/09/2022 20:45

If you’re meeting the needs of TQ+ people, then that inevitably means subordinating women, surely.

lechiffre55 · 30/09/2022 20:47

What does Primark mean when they say changing rooms for women? Females or anyone with the intangible magical womanly spirit essence disorder and a penis?

Johnnysgirl · 30/09/2022 20:50

The only issue that separate sexed changing rooms present is if you are transgender then which rooms would you use?
The only issue? I'm a biological woman, and biological men being allowed in the ladies changing room is a very big issue for me, thanks all the same.

Catiette · 30/09/2022 20:52

#MissPollyFitDolly Which culture is this though? Most people wouldn't understand "woman" to include men, no matter how they identify.

That's a good point, and got me thinking. I guess I mean the changing-room culture! Less facetiously, I mean that large businesses are increasingly conscious of the "inclusion imperative" in a way that the average person on the street simply isn't. Which, of course, leads directly to the conflict here that concerns me: it's likely (clear?) that Primark are marketing their changing rooms as single sex in the full knowledge that they nonetheless wouldn't feel able/willing to deny a male self-identifying as a woman access to them, while also, presumably, being aware that, simultaneously, the majority of women off the street won't be aware of this as a possibility. And they're exploiting these two cultures & their different languages - their definitions of what woman means - to create a self-serving ambiguity.

The numbers mean it's unlikely to be an issue for the vast, vast majority... but I still think transparency is important, and their response to the string of questions - just the one question, really - on their Twitter feed shows an unethical (if, perhaps, understandable in another complex culture, the online one, of silencing and shaming) resistance to this...

VroomVrooom · 30/09/2022 20:54

I’m asking you what it looks like @ImherewithBoudica - because there is no obvious answer.

If you want to meet the needs of TQ+ people (women and men), then biological women have to be deprioritised.

If you meet the needs of biological women, then TRAs will unleash all hell.

Noteverybodylives · 30/09/2022 21:03

The only issue? I'm a biological woman, and biological men being allowed in the ladies changing room is a very big issue for me, thanks all the same.

Which was the entire point of my post.

Brideandpredjudice · 30/09/2022 21:22

My hope is that they mean biological women.
My fear is that this is a publicity stunt and they mean anyone who says they're a woman.

Live4weekend · 30/09/2022 21:24

nauticant · 30/09/2022 17:24

I wonder what they mean by "women"? Plenty of people are asking them on twitter but not getting any response:

twitter.com/Primark/status/1575829043315892225

I think we know the answer. And it's a definition I would agree with.

Johnnysgirl · 30/09/2022 21:27

Live4weekend · 30/09/2022 21:24

I think we know the answer. And it's a definition I would agree with.

Would you, indeed?

Live4weekend · 30/09/2022 21:27

Oops bloody autocorrect for the above.

It's a definition I wouldn't agree on!

A bad typo 😳

Live4weekend · 30/09/2022 21:28

Johnnysgirl · 30/09/2022 21:27

Would you, indeed?

Just spotted my typo before your comment. Slight horrific one - it's been a long day.

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 30/09/2022 21:28

Hopefully Pervmark will become PryNotmark!

Johnnysgirl · 30/09/2022 21:29

Noteverybodylives · 30/09/2022 21:03

The only issue? I'm a biological woman, and biological men being allowed in the ladies changing room is a very big issue for me, thanks all the same.

Which was the entire point of my post.

Sorry, you made it sound as if transpeople's dilemma was the only issue. Apologies.

Johnnysgirl · 30/09/2022 21:29

Live4weekend · 30/09/2022 21:28

Just spotted my typo before your comment. Slight horrific one - it's been a long day.

Oh, phew 😅

OvaHere · 30/09/2022 21:38

I don't think they will force single sex completely rigorously. Before too long one of the high profile TRAs will go and try this out and I'm expecting them to be let in or apologised to if they're not.

It's quite telling that they won't explain precisely what they mean when they say 'women'.

However a couple of positives from this are that it's a step up from all mixed sex and they have at least recognised that women being harassed and assaulted in their stores is a bad thing. It's going in the right direction and gives us something to work with.

Igmum · 30/09/2022 21:43

Good news. Yes agree it won't be difficult for TRAs to push against it but it's a very important step in the right direction.

BlueBrush · 30/09/2022 21:46

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 30/09/2022 18:43

The significant thing about this isn’t whether or not it’s going to be effective. It’s the fact that a company has actually decided that being seen to shit on women makes them unpopular rather than look cool and go-ahead.

This.

It's an important first step in establishing the principle that mixed sex spaces don't work for women.

pickledBunion1 · 30/09/2022 21:46

Hmmm, I am going back to read the whole thread, but I work for Primark, and we have nb and trans folk for days, but they all use the staff cloakrooms according to their sex, and there is no pushback on this. So someone somewhere knows the difference between sex and gender.

Live4weekend · 30/09/2022 21:59

Igmum · 30/09/2022 21:43

Good news. Yes agree it won't be difficult for TRAs to push against it but it's a very important step in the right direction.

Do TRAs want gender neutral though? They want Transwoman in female spaces and other men to be excluded from these spaces.

That's all the matters. Nothing else.

I suspect they will have this as I have no doubt that identifying as a woman will be sufficient.

VroomVrooom · 30/09/2022 22:08

TRAs, being stone cold misogynists, categorically do not want gender neutral.

They want single sex - and free, unfettered access to that.

Identifying as a ‘woman’ will be all that is required. What with men always getting what they want.

Plus ça change……

ScrollingLeaves · 30/09/2022 22:52

Well done for listening Primark.

Kumri · 30/09/2022 23:04

Maybe next Primark can reinvent the wheel.

They shouldn’t have needed statistics and angry journalists and actual incidents of creepy men barging in on teenage girls while they get changed. This was always obvious.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 30/09/2022 23:21

The only issue that separate sexed changing rooms present is if you are transgender then which rooms would you use?

Option A
I’d suggest that they try doing what so many women have felt it necessary to do recently which is buy clothes online or without trying them on and then suffering through the returns process.

After all, that is exactly what women have had to do for a good few years now. It will give the TQ+ people a chance to really experience ‘life as a woman’. Unless, of course, they don’t want to be women but in a different category of ‘extra special women’.

Option B
Change in rooms according to sex, not gender! The clothes you are trying on won’t care which changing room they get left in!

ScrollingLeaves · 30/09/2022 23:22

VroomVrooom · Today 22:08
TRAs, being stone cold misogynists, categorically do not want gender neutral.

They want single sex - and free, unfettered access to that.

Identifying as a ‘woman’ will be all that is required. What with men always getting what they want.

Plus ça change

So you think Primark meant anyone identifying as a woman, rather than only women I wonder if anyone will ask them?