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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Primark to reinstate women and girls only changing rooms

246 replies

Handyweatherstation · 30/09/2022 17:18

They may be starting to get the message.

corporate.primark.com/en/newsroom/corporate-news/important-changes-to-our-fitting-rooms-in-the-uk/n/98cec44a-542f-40b9-8a88-618831aeddc0

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/09/2022 18:42

Primark previously had a policy that people could change where they were "comfortable". I suspect Primark will revert to that.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 30/09/2022 18:43

The significant thing about this isn’t whether or not it’s going to be effective. It’s the fact that a company has actually decided that being seen to shit on women makes them unpopular rather than look cool and go-ahead.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/09/2022 18:49

That's true. Women's comfort and dignity is being seemingly valued! In public!

Extract from the Metro, 2019

Primark has introduced gender neutral changing rooms in two of their stores.

It means everyone gets changed in the same area without it being separated by gender.

(continues)

The move comes after Topshop announced all their changing rooms would be gender neutral in 2017.

A Primark spokesperson said: ‘It has been our policy for some time that all customers are welcome to use the fitting rooms of their choice in our stores.

‘As part of our latest in-store design, non-gendered fitting rooms, which are commonplace in retail and other markets in which we operate, have been introduced in our new Bluewater and Hastings stores.’

From Metro

Brokendaughter · 30/09/2022 18:50

It's a start, but until they come out & say out loud that only biological females count as women & that they will perma ban any biological male who attempts to enter the womens changing rooms, just as they would any pervert trying to get in there, no matter what he thinks or says he is, how much surgery he has had or how much his feelings may be hurt I'll be staying away & not taking any kids in to shop.

Passing is an urban myth, so the suggestion from deluded misogynists that women can't tell the difference between the sexes is ridiculous.

ChristinaXYZ · 30/09/2022 19:09

Am I being dim but by not defining what they mean by women, having only defined areas for proper rooms for each sex and that being so insecure that the curtain hooks for cubicles need assessing does not sound useful for women to me? I think the heading of this thread gives Primark a free pass on publicity for a reform that is actually pretty vague and nearly useless.

If they gave a stuff this is not what they would be doing or saying.

The only positive thing that can be said is that they have stuck a tiny toe into admitting that there has been a problem and that they now wish to appear to be doing something without actually doing much at all. Which is further I realise than they have gone before.

NitroNine · 30/09/2022 19:12

FOJN · 30/09/2022 17:58

www.itv.com/news/anglia/2022-09-26/primark-reviews-unisex-changing-rooms-as-men-walk-in-on-woman

"If customers are uncomfortable changing in a unisex room, Primark said they could speak to a member of staff who could direct them to an "easy access" fitting room, which has a lockable door."

Is this the new policy, the old policy or the temporary policy?

I'm not hopeful the women's changing rooms will be single sex.

Has anyone seen any TRA's losing their mind over this? Have they asked for clarification and received a response?

That’s the “wheelchair users get shat on again” policy.

Johnnysgirl · 30/09/2022 19:12

PutinIsAWarCriminal · 30/09/2022 18:35

Hur-bloody-rah.
I have to say I went to m&s in our local town and a man was quickly diverted from entering the ladies changing rooms.

Was he going in accidentally, though? If he'd insisted on being allowed in because he was a "woman", bet they'd have let him. They're pretty open about their policy.

Catiette · 30/09/2022 19:14

Agree with Brokendaughter. We take what crumbs we can - and this is a loaf of bread in those (metaphorical) terms! - but I actually think it's pretty damning that they are virtue-signalling their acknowledgement that mixed changing rooms are unsafe through the carefully disingenuous change to "women" only.

Isn't it the height of hypocrisy to say, "We recognise that men may exploit mixed areas and this may make women unsafe, so we'll remove the explicitly mixed area in favour of one that we will, instead, carefully imply IS single-sex, when it actually WON'T be," (because how else to interpret the deafening silence in response to endless tweets from concerned women asking The Question, when other tweets have received rapid, courteous responses?)

Primark, have the courage of your convictions. Either you believe in including transwomen (presumably, of necessity, on the basis of self-declaration), or you remain content to exclude those women for whom your failure to define "woman" is a deal-breaker - the significant proportion of traumatised, religious,
young, disabled and simply understandably cautious females who may continue to feel - be - unsafe in your changing rooms as long as you ignore this question.

Politicians, take note. The question "What is a woman," may be used as a petty "gotcha" in some contexts, but, in situations like this, the answer determines which public spaces some women feel able to access.

I'm not saying what I think the better answer is here, but that the absence of any answer is disrespectful and hypocritical, showing a cowardly disdain for both transwomen and females - but arguably rather more the latter, in a culture in which "woman" is now more commonly understood to include the former.

ImherewithBoudica · 30/09/2022 19:28

Either you believe in including transwomen (presumably, of necessity, on the basis of self-declaration), or you remain content to exclude those women for whom your failure to define "woman" is a deal-breaker - the significant proportion of traumatised, religious, young, disabled and simply understandably cautious females who may continue to feel - be - unsafe in your changing rooms as long as you ignore this question.

Quite.

Inclusion means 'everyone is able to access'.

Not 'pick a group to exclude'.

In reality, this is going to have to mean confronting the TQ+ lobby with the reality that if their needs are met they must accept and respect female only spaces because excluding females from anything in order to dominate everything on principle isn't 'inclusion'. It's just basic male supremacism. And self identified women with such a lousy attitude and lack of care for the needs of women within their chosen identified class is a shameful, exclusionary and unacceptable way to behave.

Always4Brenner · 30/09/2022 19:30

Good now let’s see others follow.

ginghamstarfish · 30/09/2022 19:40

Good, but we know it will doubtless be challenged by pervy men, so let's home they stand by this decision and enforce it. I feel sorry for staff who have to deal with this crap

ErrolTheDragon · 30/09/2022 19:53

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/09/2022 18:42

Primark previously had a policy that people could change where they were "comfortable". I suspect Primark will revert to that.

That necessitates having facilities where women - and men - actually are 'comfortable'. Which is likely to mean they need single sex male and female, plus a 'gender neutral' third space or properly designed locking cubicles.
All the primarks I've ever been in are huge, they've got the space,

YouSirNeighMmmm · 30/09/2022 19:57

ByTheGrace · 30/09/2022 17:26

Am I cynical in thinking the dedicated single sex area will be one separate cubicle and the rest will be mixed.
Also I think some stores have kept their single sex changing rooms, I'm fairly sure Burnley was single sex last time I visited, perhaps because it is an area with a higher proportion of Muslim women? Although it was pre covid when I was last there.

That sounds like a potential lawsuit (IANAL).

Primark must know that race and religion are protected characteristics. They that Muslim women will not go to Burnley Primark, so they make a commercial decision to reject wokeness.

Primark do not consider the needs of muslim women in Brighton (guess) because they want woke points and don't think that being exclusionary to Muslim women matters to their bottom line there.

They should know the law about protected characteristics. They do know the reality about Muslim women as evidenced by their burnley store. But they don't put two and two together unless it suits their bottom line. They care not one bit about muslim women apart from their cash.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 30/09/2022 20:03

ErrolTheDragon · 30/09/2022 19:53

That necessitates having facilities where women - and men - actually are 'comfortable'. Which is likely to mean they need single sex male and female, plus a 'gender neutral' third space or properly designed locking cubicles.
All the primarks I've ever been in are huge, they've got the space,

Is it not reasonable of a woman to wish to try on something sexy (in a cubicle) and then enter a large single sex space to view what she looks like from a distance? To move and pose a bit? Without a bloke sat there watching?

Best practice would be lockable cubicles within larger single sex changing rooms? One for each sex, and one for the T (if they ask for it and want it).

MissPollysFitDolly · 30/09/2022 20:15

Catiette
...but arguably rather more the latter, in a culture in which "woman" is now more commonly understood to include the former.

Which culture is this though? Most people wouldn't understand "woman" to include men, no matter how they identify.

FemaleAndLearning · 30/09/2022 20:20

Primark posted on Twitter six hours ago. They are taking their time defining woman.

YourLipsMyLips · 30/09/2022 20:20

I was in the Dundee Primark yesterday and overheard the staff discussing this while I was trying stuff on; they had all been told to still separate men and women in the changing rooms, so maybe not all stores were doing this in the first place.

arethereanyleftatall · 30/09/2022 20:25

We can't do anything at all, until we go back to the start and woman returns to its original meaning of adult human female. Because, whilst we all have to bow down to the twaw mantra, primarks statement is meaningless.

Noteverybodylives · 30/09/2022 20:27

The only issue that separate sexed changing rooms present is if you are transgender then which rooms would you use?

With some people you genuinely can’t tell and there will be many women who are very uncomfortable with having a pre-op transgender person in an all female changing room.

For that reason I think an area of mixed sexed changing rooms is a good idea and then have the others separated.

VroomVrooom · 30/09/2022 20:31

The only issue that separate sexed changing rooms present is if you are transgender then which rooms would you use?

The answer to that is quite obvious to people who know you can’t change sex.

It’s not so obvious to people who have changed gender.

melafixer · 30/09/2022 20:32

I’ll believe it when I see evidence!

Handsoffmyrights · 30/09/2022 20:35

'a pre-op transgender person in an all female changing room.'

But even if that man goes on to have his penis removed (and only around 5% of men who self ID as female do) I still don't want him in my space, thanks.

ImherewithBoudica · 30/09/2022 20:37

VroomVrooom · 30/09/2022 20:31

The only issue that separate sexed changing rooms present is if you are transgender then which rooms would you use?

The answer to that is quite obvious to people who know you can’t change sex.

It’s not so obvious to people who have changed gender.

I don't think anyone's objecting to additional third gender neutral spaces for those who would prefer them. What is not ok is simply removing single sex provision from females and thereby excluding all the females who can't access them. That is the part that has to be respected in this 'everyone should use spaces they feel comfortable in' and 'be kind' and 'inclusive' world. If it does not apply equally respectfully and carefully to all females as well as TQ+ people, it's not ok.

VroomVrooom · 30/09/2022 20:39

If it does not apply equally respectfully and carefully to all females as well as TQ+ people, it's not ok.

What does that look like?

Noteverybodylives · 30/09/2022 20:39

The answer to that is quite obvious to people who know you can’t change sex.

Obviously not and obviously not the point of my post. 🙄