sarah ditum on Posie parker

[narcymum]

Just saw a tweet where she calls PP a 'poundshop marine le Pen'
WTF! why are women who are supposedly in this fight together actively trying to sabotage another woman's activism?
Can we not move away from this schoolyard shit?

I’m off to watch this, interested to find out if Unherd can identify a fascist.

(My struggle session hat is in the wash…)

I don't think it's guilty by association that's the problem, but that by not for example criticising organisations like HoO for live streaming women speaking without their knowledge of where it was it was being broadcast, these organisations appear to be benign by association.

These right wing groups, especially the US Christian ones have the complete removal of women's right as one of their long-term goals. They will use and use women - many of who may be appreciative of the coverage or support for their campaigns - for their own profoundly anti-women goals.

Rachel Rooney who attended the event has written a thoughtful thread on Twitter about not wanting to be streamed on their channels, but not knowing that that was one of the risks that she would have taken by speaking twitter.com/RooneyRachel/status/1574027617262608384.

It's confusing to hear on the one hand that 'the sky isn't falling in' yet 'the house is on fire and we can't check the credentials of everyone who passes us a bucket of water'. Fwiw, I don't think the house is burning in the UK in the same way as it is in the States and many European countries, although I can appreciate that it feels like that if you're wrestling the toxicity of gender ideology in your own family right now. I think women-led and feminist groups in the UK do have the time and capacity to scrutinise any group who has some of the same goals, and should be creating situations where individual women decide for themselves where they draw the line.

I'm not criticising SFW or KJK or any of the women who attended this and other events. I don't believe any of them are primarily motivated by the same issues that motivate racist, nationalist groups like Heart of Oaks by any measure.

But I am concerned that the size and capacity of the women's movement in the UK now makes it very attractive to groups who will be on the same page as women about some issues which they will use to push much larger anti-women agendas.

And the minimising 'it was just two blokes with cameras' doesn't feel very comfortable. It smacks of 'it was only a peck', 'he didn't mean anything by it' and 'he only did it once' - all used to undermine and erode women's boundaries.

Are you suggesting that all KJK had to do to get rid of the TRAs protesting her event was to tell them to go away? No police necessary? I wonder why she didn't think of that.

The problem is that the underlying thought process these people have is toxic.

It has always been the case that if you want to speak publicly about things that are important to people, those who have things like newspapers, newscasts, write magazines, and all the rest, may cover what you do and say.

And they may or may not be complimentary, and the speaker may or may not like the analysis they make or conclusions they draw.

If we enter into the public discourse, what we say is on the table, and we no longer get to control how people relate or respond to it. If a group we don't like "likes" us, that is their prerogative.

And just to be clear - most American right wing groups are not looking to strip women of their rights. They don't want to stop them voting, owning property, going to school. There are some very tiny fringe elements that think this way - but it's incorrect to think this is typical of American conservatives or even Christian conservatives.

Most of them are concerned about the stuff that PP talks about because they see it is dangerous to their kids. And they have every right to be concerned about that and politically active to that end.

but you can’t control what happens once you’ve put something into the public domain?

it makes zero material difference if HoO live stream with their own device or if they wait for others (eg SFW) to upload and then use that copy.

I do understand why women wouldn’t be happy about their speech being used on a site owned by a group they don’t know, don’t agree with and hadn’t given express permission to, but once you’ve said it in public or published footage or a photograph, you can do diddly squat about where it ends up. This is internet safety 101 - if you put information out on the internet you don’t know where it will end up.

I’ve already posted about this in one of the other threads but 25 years ago one of my best friends was murdered, by strangers, completely randomly, on his way home after a night out.
The uk (actual) fascist organisation, the National Front, used my friend’s photo, taken from a newspaper, on their propaganda website ‘The Fallen’ because he was a naice, white university graduate with a doctor dad and a teacher mum who was killed by a gang of inner city teens, some of whom were black or mixed race.

It was horrible to see, violating, in fact, but his family couldn’t do anything about it. Public domain information.

I’m pretty sure the various TRAs we post about over here aren’t very happy about either, I don’t suppose the recent piss protestor particularly liked being famous on Mumsnet… but this is the nature of the internet so I don’t know what people expect to do about it?

Even if their were potential solutions (take down requests for copyright claim?) would it be a bad precedent for the future?

Because the last thing we want is a world where we can’t republish public domain info on TRAs or Trans lobby groups.

"These right wing groups, especially the US Christian ones have the complete removal of women's right as one of their long-term goals."

And yet hardly anyone's heard of them. Are they staging a coup in the House of Commons next week with two blokes and a tripod? Rounding women up, lured away in the millions by 20 year old Sofie whatsername , into forced marriage and breeding programmes?

I can't believe the pathetic bollocks I'm reading.

Are they staging a coup in the House of Commons next week with two blokes and a tripod?

Going to struggle with that given their propensity to just go away whenever asked nicely.

But this is like shouting at babies isn't it? Much easier to attack the quiet well-behaved people with a camera, than the actual fascist mob screaming in one's face.

Although of course the people telling KJK how to run the event weren't even there themselves were they? Easy from a position of privilege to say "don't worry about the mob - pay attention to the people who are behaving".

Maybe if they had the courage to turn up to the event themselves and go around policing all the law-abiding parts of the crowd?

KJK has no more power over these Bad People than anyone else. And they have as much right to be in that public place as she does, or the TRAs do. If she can tell them to go away, they can tell her to go away. It's not a booked private venue. There's no "trespass" law for her to call on. Everyone has the right to be there, and the police have to just try to keep the piece between all the groups wanting to be there.

If people want them to go away, then they should turn up themselves and tell them to go away. And figure out what they're going to do if they just say "no, we want to stay".

And they could then ask themselves why they're more comfortable confronting them than the actual mob.

the unifying factor is caring about the oppressed and working-class people and wanting a more equal society

This is why gender theorists are not on the left. The changes they want often disproportionately affect disadvantaged and low income women, those who are in prison, who need publicly funded refuges and survivor services, homeless accommodation and addiction recovery services. Nothing shows how class analysis is out of vogue in the progressive left like gender theory does.

Seriously. Two men in a field with a video camera is now comparable with sexual assault or harassment.

This, right here, is why feminists can only easily recruit people happy to chant TWAW like well trained parrots.

On your own heads be it. I hope you all keep feministing right. Whatever your own flavour of right is. And I’ll keep listening, thinking, being open to all and any decent arguments that come out of the Proper Feminist camp.

But the next time a thread appears on here bemoaning that women don’t call themselves a feminist, instead of seventy squillion posts of “I know right !” & “I just don’t get it” maybe you could analyse why the feminist movement(s) can have similar issues to the TRAs when it comes to understanding why people find both off putting, irrelevant and detached from reality.

And the minimising 'it was just two blokes with cameras' doesn't feel very comfortable. It smacks of 'it was only a peck', 'he didn't mean anything by it' and 'he only did it once' - all used to undermine and erode women's boundaries.

I wouldn't even have heard of HoO of it wasn't for people who don:t like KJK broadcasting the fact. These are women who are supposedly on our side, if they hadn't made an issue of it to serve their own agenda then a couple of blokes with a camera would have filmed the event and perhaps some people with right wing views might have watched it, I would be none the wiser.

Why would I be bothered about anyone actually listening to women's voices? The event is called let women speak, the "fascists" were far more respectful about honouring that request than the TRA's.

How do you change people's minds if you don't even want them to hear what you have to say?

Why are we giving free publicity to HoO? It makes me doubt the political competence of feminists who try to speak for women. Starting an argument over this issue has advertised HoO and is a serious tactical error.

Nothing shows how class analysis is out of vogue in the progressive left like gender theory does.

Indeed.

I agree with all of this.

Can someone explain why we're supposed to view two men peacefully filming the event as more of a threat than the thugs who were arrested for throwing smoke bombs and having a bag full of knives?

She's running an event which allows women to speak, that is all. I watched part of her speakers corner event on Sunday, KJK is simply a facilitator, the women are the focus of the event and they were brilliant

I agree with this. I think people criticizing Kellie JM just haven’t really understood her format. It’s genuine grassroots activism. It’s not a ticketed event with invited, vetted speakers. That’s not the format.

These right wing groups, especially the US Christian ones have the complete removal of women's right as one of their long-term goals. They will use and use women - many of who may be appreciative of the coverage or support for their campaigns - for their own profoundly anti-women goals.

The profoundly anti-women types on the far right have very very little support in this country. The profoundly anti-women policies being followed by the Labour Party, the prison system, NHS, shops such as M&S, Primark, many schools, unions, the mainstream media, are more the focus of Standing for Women.

Can we worry about the not-in-power people once we've had a bit more success against those in power?

So true. And if you look at their page, the video has had very few views. They are a tiny organisation without much reach. And the Streisand effect of many women whose determination to bring KJK down by any means possible has amplified their reach way more than they could possibly have hoped. Some might even argue that the women directing traffic to their site have been played.

I have run open-air events and told men to go away. They did. It is not difficult

i felt the same way about the above, sounded a bit victim blamey to me

It won’t be the only reason, but after seeing several posts that seemed quite cross that people didn’t realise “feminists said it FIRST !” I’m now convinced there is a concern that due credit won’t be given to proper feminists once the finish line is crossed.

That PP will go down in history as The Leader, and only honourable mentions for Proper Feminists.

I get it. We are all human. But as a non entity all I ever wanted was getting over the finish line. Actually seeing a finish line that wasn’t rapidly receding into the disappearing horizon would have helped at times. To see it clearly in our sights, with the wind of the increasingly less silent majority behind us is like all my Christmases coming at once. Taking nothing for granted, obviously. You don’t put down your arms just cos the other side got stuck in the mud cos they can get a second wind. But it is there, closer than I’ve seen it for so very long. And I don’t care if the proper feminists or improper women, or even a bloke, gets the True Leader trophy once we’re over the line. I just want to get over it.

I can completely understand the human reaction to what they see as imminent nicked numero uno credit where credit is due. But winning back reality is too big & important a concept to dilute winning as the only priority. Certainly not for the sake of somebody’s entirely understandable feelings.

I won’t forget who was there battling the roar and spittle in their faces right back in the beginning. I’m not as appealing as the media, or other credit giving bodies. But I won’t forget. And my appreciation and admiration of the feminists refusing to stop ringing the alarm, despite huge efforts to intimidate, threaten, hurt and shun them, will never dim.

I am not one them, but thank the god I don’t believe in for them. Or we really would be in the shit cos they’d have been no grassroots network already in place to have springboarded off when the fan and the shit started hitting more visibly for the general public.

It won’t be the only reason, but after seeing several posts that seemed quite cross that people didn’t realise “feminists said it FIRST !” I’m now convinced there is a concern that due credit won’t be given to proper feminists once the finish line is crossed.

That PP will go down in history as The Leader, and only honourable mentions for Proper Feminists.

Are the 'proper feminists' now regretting their refusal to work with KJK? It was their demand for purity which led to her setting up on her own rather than being part of their movement (of course she might have done that anyway).

womansplaceuk.org/2022/06/22/womans-place-and-posie-parker/

I feel quite uncomfortable that WPUK have platformed males who identify as transwomen at their meetings, so they fail my personal purity test. I wouldn't cancel them for that, though, in the way they cancelled KJK.

Because we're supposed to let our betters do the thinking for us? This seems to be the general view of the left these days and that is totalitarianism. Which is in many ways similar to fascism.

What they're trying very hard to shame us into doing is to discount the evidence of our own eyes and the videos of the event which showed TRAs who threw things and wore black masks and aggressively shouted at women (and in the vicinity of babies). The two men quietly filming would have gone unnoticed had certain people not needed something to criticise KJK and normal women for and so gone hunting for some alleged link to the right wing. If those blokes hadn't been there they would have found something else no doubt. They just love to blame every opinion random unconnected men hold on women. Like we have any power at all over that.

I still don't know how KJK was supposed to psychically divine they were members of a right wing organisation in the middle of being aggressively targeted by violent thugs in masks and trying to run an event in a public place. Or indeed what she was supposed to do about it had she known.

These right wing groups, especially the US Christian ones have the complete removal of women's right as one of their long-term goals

Why this obsessive focus with US fringe Christian sects? If we wanted to worry about religious groups removing womens rights then Islam should be much more of a concern. And if we were to look oversees then groups proclaiming Islam don't have removal of women's rights as a long term goal - they have brutally removed the rights of millions and millions of women now. It is not as if Islam is a tiny religion in the UK either.

We are trying to make you look at what is happening.

We are trying to make you look at what’s happening!

Who is "we", antelopevalley? What is your position on the issues involved? Are you broadly gender critical or do you believe TWAW?