sarah ditum on Posie parker

[narcymum]

Just saw a tweet where she calls PP a 'poundshop marine le Pen'
WTF! why are women who are supposedly in this fight together actively trying to sabotage another woman's activism?
Can we not move away from this schoolyard shit?

Queering politics is causing a loss of faith in the political system, and that is widely accepted as a pre-requisite for fascism. Along with austerity, economic uncertainty, and unrest. If you aren't worried, you haven't been paying attention.

The writing has been on the wall for at least ten years.

I think I first became aware that Europe would ultimately shift right during the Greek debt crisis, the migrant crisis cemented that belief.

By the time Hillary Clinton was calling would be republican voters "a basket of deplorables" I knew Trump would be elected.

When Brexit turned so toxic that anyone who voted leave was branded a thick bigot and Corbyn supporters wrote lengthy Twitter threads berating the stupid red wall voters because they didn't vote for him in 2019 I knew that parties who should support the average working person were now more interested in virtue signalling and getting high on moral superiority than listening.

I have seen many posters here, over the last few years, point out that this approach would push typical Labour voters to the right but the left was too busy calling people bigots to take their concerns seriously.

Your warning is too late for those of us who actually have been paying attention. Perhaps if the left hand heeded our warnings we wouldn't be here.

It's not too late for the left to change tack but I can't see it happening. They could stop branding everyone who disagrees with them fascists, bigots, racists, stupid etc, these words no longer have power or meaning and yet fascists, bigots and racist people do exist but they're are not nearly as prevalent as the left needs them to be in order to give the modern left it's sense of righteousness and purpose. Perhaps they could get back to dealing with the very real issues faced by working people.

So you pipped me at the post to win the prize for general knowledge of political parties from the last 50 years then

If this thread makes it to 40
pages we could probably go on Mastermind with crap political parties as our specialist subject!

Agreed. Same points in time & conclusion.

KS seems to be trying really hard, and may be making headway behind the scenes. But it’s got to be like trying to do world’s most complicated tap dance in a field of egg shells and not break any.

Mussolini did a 100 years ago.
So okay not quote never. But name one fascist party in UK in last 50 years that has the name fascist in it?

Mussolini was "the" fascist. It's his term. Have there actually been any technically fascist parties in the U.K. in the last 50 years?

Can you qualify the reasons why any of these parties you are alluding to are fascist? How do they meet the generally accepted definition?

What are you taking fascist to mean, do you have a working definition which fits these parties? Is it racists? Homophobes? Or is it just any far right party, or even wider than that? Not believing in gender identity ideology? Please explain, because people who throw around the word "fascist" willy nilly aren't particularly convincing. I would tend to roll my eyes, because it's often childish hyperbole by the sort of people who protest women's meetings masked and head to toe in black (and are completely indiscriminate about whether they are protesting the left wing rad fems or KJK).

I'm not saying there aren't any fascist parties, I'm not really that familiar with the overall aims of the NF etc, but I think to call something fascist you should be able to understand and articulate why it is, and not use it as an all purpose slur for right wing people.

I'm not protesting KJK.
I would like organisers of public events to not open the door for the far right to attend. I can't see why that's such a big ask.

I agree, Eresh

Because words have meanings and all this constant PoMo queering of the language doesn’t just stop once they’ve taken all the words that we use to describe ourselves.

I can’t trust someone who is misusing really important words like ‘racist’ or ‘fascist’ or ‘homophobe’ just like I can’t trust someone who is misuse ‘female’, ‘woman’ or ‘girl’.

Material reality is important and so are the words that describe it.

How do you do that at an open event in a public space. The men just quietly filmed. They weren't disruptive,they didn't try to convert anyone to their nefarious cause. The police would have no reason to remove them. The stewards weren't aware who they were so why would they remove them? Because they weren't disruptive.

He (TR) did a talk at the Oxford Union once. Pretty sure that's on YouTube still

It was an open air event, this is a free country, how would you like her to stop them? There was literally no door to open.

She's running an event which allows women to speak, that is all. I watched part of her speakers corner event on Sunday, KJK is simply a facilitator, the women are the focus of the event and they were brilliant.

She said she was asked for an interview by Hearts of Oak but said no because she didn't know enough about them.

It was in a park wasn’t it ?
No doors

And that’s what was done to all of us. Turned away at the door for wrong think. Been told most emphatically at high decibel levels Not Welcome. Derided. Socially, politically and professionally shunned.

How well has that turned out for the TRA movement ?
And why should we copy their (not exactly successful as it turns out) MO ?

No. I’m not up for that. I’ll listen to anybody. Make me an argument. Answer rather than dodge my questions. I’ll make my own mind up. I’m not as stupid and impressionable as some people believe me to be. And I’d suggest that most other people are at least as good as me at doing that, cos I’m very average, at best.

I have run open-air events and told men to go away. They did. It is not difficult.

Anyone filming should identify themselves. Its only polite.
The police should back up the event organiser, since they can also be held liable for trouble.

So fascists are men who respect a woman’s boundaries and are agreeable enough to leave when asked without making it hard.

I shall look out for those as markers of the type in future.

There was no door, it was public open ground.

No door. No one opened a door.

Are your events attended by several hundred shouting and screaming counter protestors? Do you have barriers and a police presence to protect your attendees? I would imagine she was a bit too busy to check the credentials of everyone there.

KJK is clear that SFW has no political affiliation, which is essential for encouraging women from across the political spectrum to come together, so it's inevitable that people with very different politics will attend. They were not given a platform, they simply observed, it's not illegal to film in a public space.

Perhaps we could focus on the amazing women who spoke rather than two blokes no one paid any attention to.

Should is your opinion. Don’t have to is another opinion.

Also it isn’t that surprising that any faith that the police will back up women saying humans can’t change sex has long gone.

I did lots of filming. Who should I be identifying myself to?

KJK doesn't care! She just wants her message out there, which is about protecting women and girls. And she's smart enough to not give a stuff about right wing commentators reporting on her stuff because the left nullify her message which is pointless (but essentially the subject of this thread). In fact, she might even tread a line of not necessarily courting but not stopping or even accepting invitations from those who are objectionables in the eyes of the purity police.

How can some people not see this? It's not about alignment, but about who is going to be a help in getting her message (protecting her women & girls) heard.

This thread is really depressing.

Anyone filming should identify themselves. Its only polite.

Hold on a minute - does this mean that we should expect better manners from fascists? Or that anyone who is isn’t polite can be assumed to be a fascist?

Video tech is now so cheap and ubiquitous that PERVERTS PUT SPYCAMS DOWN PUBLIC LAVATORIES so expecting people to ask before filming at a public event seems positively victorian!

And the right are more interested because the left aren't, that's the bottom line. The Left have disappeared up their own backsides and are no longer the ones speaking truth to their audience. Resonance is really important in politics &, on this issue, they have lost the public. We all know there are 2 sexes and that there are different accommodations because of that fact. Fudging it because their blue haired mate Rowan doesn't want to accept the truth of their adulthood does not wash with the vast majority of the country.

Wait what ? All this gnashing of teeth about fascists is about two blokes with a video camera in an open field ?

We’ve gone from 2B+C to New Hitler jackbooting all over women makings us barefoot and pregnant by dictator style law cos women can’t be too careful enough who we “associate” with.

It’s like fucking Bridgeton and all the rules about having to get married cos you wandered in the Orangery without an appropriate chaperone.

I just don't see why someone running an open meeting on what is arguably a medical /legal scandal should feel obliged to tell anyone to leave because of politics.

The reason seems to be "because some people might get the wrong idea that bad people agree that it is a scandal."

Some people being.... the people who already support what she is standing up against.

These people weren't there making some political point to the group.

If many people are now seeing the left as morally bankrupt, and think more right wing groups might be talking sense, the answer for the left is simple - make a better argument. My suggestion is to start by avoiding calling people fascists and bigots for expecting you to have something sensible to say.

Wait what ? All this gnashing of teeth about fascists is about two blokes with a video camera in an open field ?

Yeah pretty much, turned out later that someone discovered they were HoO and the tra's have done their usual shit of smearing people as fascist because they didn't instantly denounce them being there. Then Ditum chimed in and gave them more fuel by callingKJK a Pound shop Marine le Pen.

Meanwhile, in the real world most people understand that guilt by association is ridiculous and the sky isn't falling in and women aren't being lured away by alt-right groups, because you know, they are thinking sentient human beings who can make up their own minds, but this is wrong apparently because the leftwaffe insist that if we don't denounce then we are allies and are persona non grata and probably should go to a struggle session for re education