sarah ditum on Posie parker

[narcymum]

Just saw a tweet where she calls PP a 'poundshop marine le Pen'
WTF! why are women who are supposedly in this fight together actively trying to sabotage another woman's activism?
Can we not move away from this schoolyard shit?

Can you stop infantilising us poundshop feminists? this attitude that we will be tainted by 2 dodgy blokes with an iPhone and piped like the children of hamlet into far-right fascism is just patronising and may I say patriachal.
Are we too weak-willed to make our own choices without PP standing up and denouncing them for us? Give over with your bullshit and give women some credit.

Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

I still remain convinced that water is wet, the sun is really quite hot, the priest at mass today did not turn the wine into Christ’s blood and humans can’t change sex.

So I think "fascist" fits the TRAs better, as it is a good description of what they DO

And all of this. Suppressing counter opinions through aggression, intimidation, and economic and social destruction of your ‘opponents’ sounds like the actions of a fascist to me. At the very least it is fascist adjacent.

@antelopevalley

So your answer is still, ‘yeah, cos Tommy Robinson’.

You still haven’t pointed to anything HoO say, want or do that is fascist but you still want to maintain they are. They might well be. But you haven’t made that case.

I’m holding firm on this because it’s really important that people understand the vital need to evidence the beliefs they hold. Especially if they want others to adopt those beliefs and act on them.

Tommy Robinson is a deeply unpleasant individual who certainly has links with Hearts of Oak but unless you know something not readily available on the internet then he didn't found it.

And @antelopevalley have you condemned the fascist like behavior of the TRAs? Everything you have said would indicate you believe it is really important that is done. Have you?

I have a theory that people who think this way do not actually believe that people can reason their way to truth. Or maybe it is that they do not believe there is any truth.

But typically they are like this about everything. They also don't want schools to teach real history or thinking, only select facts given a certain contextual flavour. Reading needs to be restricted, libraries shouldn't have certain books, and so on, no old, bad tv shows available, etc.

Hearts of Oak sound more like a British version of a Rand Paul type brand of Libertarianism?

Right wing, sure, but the other bit of the right wing on the ol’ political compass thingy. The purple bit.

I’ve never actually looked into what Tommy Robinson believes, I’ve always been a good little lefty and accepted that he was probably a bit of a nazi. Problem is, now everyone’s a nazi so I’m going to have to look up something directly from the horses (nazi’s?) mouth.

Bit worried about someone who claims to be a left wing feminist sharing Wikipedia as a source when it’s so captured that it’s founder has publicly denounced it and feminist’s pages are routinely vandalised by the TRAs than run the internet (the Tranitors)

starting to think Antelope might not actually be a feminist organiser after all…

starting to think Antelope might not actually be a feminist organiser after all…

GASP!

If we buy you a tambourine will that help?

Again we come to language and how it is mangled and becomes meaningless. I have looked up definitions of fascism, right wing and far right so I am clearer.
The problem is 95%?? of the population will say humans can't change sex. Given the diversity of opinions we have in our democracy then those who follow the far right or fascism are statistically likely to agree with the statement humans cannot change sex.
Kelly Jay has never said who can and cannot attend the events she facilitates, everyone is welcome. Once you start gatekeeping who can attend a public event then it is not a public event and becomes exclusive. Sometimes I don't agree with the speakers and that is okay.
If Hearts of Oak are interested in protecting children then I can see why they came and filmed for themselves but that does not mean I'm a fascist by association. Happy to be called one if that's what people want to do, I get called transphobic and a bigot and they are overused and thus meaningless too.

My observation has been that for quite a few people like antelope, the line seems to be around immigration. If there is any claim by a person or group that current immigration policies are a problem and need to be more restrictive in some way, it's far-right, and possibly fascist.

@Hepwo

Once you start gatekeeping who can attend a public event then it is not a public event and becomes exclusive.

And if you try to dictate what members of the public can and can't go to a public event, then you are liable to end up being a fascist...

My observation has been that for quite a few people like antelope, the line seems to be around immigration. If there is any claim by a person or group that current immigration policies are a problem and need to be more restrictive in some way, it's far-right, and possibly fascist.

I remember when the left used to have concerns about immigration being used as a tool by business and government to suppress wages.

The fact that they can't even think about this shows how much they're totally in thrall to "signalling". They have to be totally 100% in favour of more immigration, always, for exactly the same reason they have to be totally 100% in favour of bigger prosthetic boobs for male teachers, always. It's to signal that they're not like the "bad people", who only have issues because they're fascists/bigots/whatever.

They're no longer capable of actually looking at something objectively and judging it on its merits. It's all about who else does and doesn't support it, and how you indicate which group you belong to.

And then when no-one wants to support them any more, because they're clearly idiots incapable of making coherent arguments for what they do and don't support, they just denounce all those no longer supporting them as fascists/bigots/whatever.

And you know what - I do believe there are still real fascists out there. I just no longer have any idea who they are. Probably not anyone being called "fascist" though, as it's safer and more productive to call non-fascists fascists...

Je suis #domesticatedzombie

🙄

will read the rest of the thread.
But it is really never a great look to sneer and ridicule people (women) even if you disagree with them.
It looks like no debate, except with those who think like me.

I'll add that one to the same bucket as sex not being dimorphic, people with penises being lesbians, puberty blockers being fully reversible and the phrase 'literal violence'.

Weird, innit? How people who currently identify as lefty also say no borders, with seemingly no understanding that you can’t effectively introduce a left wing economic policy without a defined nation and restrictions on immigration.

americanaffairsjournal.org/2018/11/the-left-case-against-open-borders/

Left and right seem increasingly meaningless to me.

I find this one particularly weird, because it is probably the most straightforward example of where the left and right seem to have actually exchanged positions.

The left has adopted a globalist position on immigration, and you only find the old leftist type positions among conservatives.

And then they wonder why the working classes are voting more and more for conservatives.

Left and right seem increasingly meaningless to me.

Left seems to have become something identified as rather than anything rooted in actual solid materiality or criteria related to the origin of the term. It is also identified as being virtuous. Right has become a label to smear someone as beneath contempt/dehumanised/not to be listened to. Name calling/labelling to dismiss and dehumanise has become a fairly major component of the left identity.

Rachel Reeves said in her speech today that Labour are the party of social justice. That is another term that needs a definition but that has turned me even further from Labour.

You are all talking about the left as if we all believe the same thing.
It is like feminism, there are big differences between beliefs. But the unifying factor is caring about the oppressed and working-class people and wanting a more equal society.

But the unifying factor is caring about the oppressed and working-class people and wanting a more equal society.

Or, to rephrase, the unifying factor is a belief that all opponents do not care about oppressed and working-class people, and do not want a more equal society.

I am a feminist organiser. Not the kind that accepts fascists though.
I shared Wikipedia and a few other links about who Tommy Robinson is. Have a look yourself.
If you think someone active in the BNP and EDL and in and out of prison for fraud and violence is someone who is okay that is up to you. He is the founder of Hearts of Oak.

@NecessaryScene You are obviously not interested in discussing this in good faith when no one has said anything of the sort.

You have the chutzpah to speak of good faith?!