sarah ditum on Posie parker

[narcymum]

Just saw a tweet where she calls PP a 'poundshop marine le Pen'
WTF! why are women who are supposedly in this fight together actively trying to sabotage another woman's activism?
Can we not move away from this schoolyard shit?

Well I just googled Hearts of Oak and tbh I don't really think you could call them fascist.

Their 'about' page says: The bedrock of a democratic society is free speech whether it be on religion, politics, children’s rights or any topical subject all or which is undergoing extreme censorship. These last two years has seen the alienation of our right to free speech leading us all into darker times and inhibiting our right to think for ourselves and to tolerate others who think differently. Hearts of Oak is all about a healthy debate.

Doesn't sound like a fascist organisation to me. The emphasis on healthy debate and freedom of speech isn't usually associated with fascism.

Are they white identitarians? Maybe? Probably more English identitarians. ("The things we believe matter are: Personal Responsibility; History; Identity; Heritage; Family; Culture; Belonging; Strength; Stability; Longevity; Support; Protection; Confidence; Compassion")

Anyway. Just while you're all banging on about Posie hobnobbing with fascists, thought I'd point out that... she wasn't. But as she says, any woman is welcome to speak at her events, because she believes in freedom of speech. So if a fascist woman wants to speak, she could, and that's fine. Contrary to current popular opinion, hearing other people's opinions won't hurt you.

Gender critical is not a far right position FFS. It's the mainstream view and of most people from all walks of life.

I could believe HoO have connections to TRAs.

I can also believe they have connections to Sophie Corcoran who spoke (see images).

It's occurred to me before that there are some who are really scared by the idea that feminism could become something that doesn't belong to the left. That they might have to allow that women who are centrists or even conservatives might have some good ideas and that their arguments and POV would have to be taken seriously, and that they couldn't be dismissed as handmaidens or under the thumb of the patriarchy.

Possibly Layla Moran is going to do a soul check on the crowd.

I think at the top of these threads we should have a definition of words like fascist or left or gender critical, just so i know whats going on

and you shouldn’t be allowed to say that people are fascist unless you have evidence, obviously you could say i think that so and so is a fascist but then everyone could ignore you

More realistically just ignore the people who exagerate or make assertions and refuse to evidence them. This minimises the benefits of open and honest debate, but if someone is disingenuous and refuses to back up anything they say it becomes hard to have any sort of open and honest debate anyway.

Hearts of Oak are fascist. They were set up by Tommy Robinson. He was very active in the BNP and since then has been involved in various fascist groups such as the English Defence League.
If you are comfortable with the BNP and EDL you will see no issue with him or Hearts of Oak.

Tommy Robinson is a fascist. Hearts of Oak was set up by him.
Words have meaning. Fascist does not simply mean anyone you do not like. It is a particular political viewpoint. And he is a fascist.

Yes I think that may be correct for some. Left & Feminist like salt & pepper.

But I’m getting a strong whiff that there is a genuine fear that improper feminists and not feminists don’t have the correct … I dunno, training ? to know how to ward off being groomed into extremist groups.

If saying the magic words “Fascisti are not welcome here” isn’t done we somehow lose all our faculties, all our hard won experience of navigating life and become vulnerable to the siren song of Nazis.

I think there are a lot of very clever, street smart (+powerful, needed and thought provoking) voices in the feminist movement. I do not get the impression that they feel the same way about non lefties, non feminists or both combined.

Fascist does not simply mean anyone you do not like. It is a particular political viewpoint.

Wiktionary - first place I checked:

fascism: Any right-wing, authoritarian, nationalist ideology characterized by centralized, totalitarian governance, strong regimentation of the economy and of society, and repression of criticism or opposition.

Now, why does that fit "Hearts of Oak" more than all the screaming TRAs?

I don't think you get excused by simply self-identifying as "left".

That made me laugh and laugh!

Maybe look at an actual dictionary for a definition?

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

And me!

Perhaps she could loan out her magic-soul-seeing-spectacles because now that everyone is fascist, or fascist adjacent (including the people who are mocking authoritarianism in all it’s forms, including fascism) it’s more than a full-time job for one.

@antelopevalley

Saying, ‘yeah cos Tommy Robinson’ is not an answer.

You are right that words have meanings. And what have to do to make your case that HoO are fascists is to be able to points to the words they are saying that are fascist. To point to the changes they want to see in the world that are fascist. To point to their actions that are fascist.

I am open to persuasion. I had never heard of this group before this thread. All I know of them is their website. And that website more reflects a small state, free speech stance than a fascist one.

You haven’t made your case yet.

Maybe look at an actual dictionary for a definition?

All the definitions are basically the same - variations of "right-wing + authoritarian".

I can see that Hearts of Oak are far right-wing, and apparently anti-immigration.

But I can't see any immediate evidence of them satisfying the other conditions of actual authoritarianism.

Whereas the TRAs meet most of the conditions of authoritarianism, and only really escape by self-identifying as "left".

So I think "fascist" fits the TRAs better, as it is a good description of what they DO, even if they would claim different political motivations for their actions.

Hearts of Oak may share some right-wing beliefs and reasoning with conventional fascists, but it doesn't automatically make them fascists. When I see them actually whipping up mobs like the TRAs do, and trying to get people fired for disagreeing with them, I would have to reconsider.

Where's your evidence that they are fascist? I looked at their website and they say nothing about fascism. Their 'about' page would suggest they're anti-fascist. Their featured guests include quite a few Christians, including a Nigerian pastor. They've had Calvin Robinson on their podcast, Naomi Wolf, Harry Miller... what kind of fascists promote black people, women and anti-fascists? Right wing, identitarian, populist... sure, I could buy that. But they're not fascists.

The trouble is that the lefties have cried 'fascist' a few too many times. Anyone more right wing than Corbyn is a fascist. Babies are fascist. Meanwhile they try to shut down debate, stop people from speaking, and harrass and attack anyone who disagrees with them. But we're the fascists... right.

How many degrees of separation are we required to have to be non fascist?
If I go to a local council meeting and Bob the rampant homophobe is there, am I guilty by association if I don't immediately denounce him and make it known I don't align with his beliefs, even though we're both concerned about the dog shit in the park?

centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation

So the opposite of a small government then?

and forcible suppression of opposition

And the opposite to free speech?

So HoO and fascism are opposites yet somehow HoO are still fascists?

that definition sounds more like the left to me to be honest

You’re fucked mate..

Even if you publish a manifesto stating that your aims are the opposite of Fascism you are still a fascist.

You should never have gone to the dogshit meeting but you did and now you and Bob may as well get married and adopt homophobic puppies and call them all Benito.

Thats exactly what im saying

people should say what they mean by fascist otherwise youve got muppets calling babies fascists

And here's me thinking 'everybody I dont like is literally Hitler' was just a meme' and not actually you know like policy.

This is Tommy Robinson who is the founder of Hearts of Oak.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson_(activist)

"Tommy Robinson, is a British far-right, anti-Islam activist, and convicted criminal on multiple counts of violence and fraud as well as other crimes. He is the co-founder and former leader of the English Defence League, and later served as a political advisor to former UKIP leader Gerard Batten.
Robinson has been active in far-right politics for many years. He was a member of the neo-fascist and white nationalist British National Party (BNP) from 2004 to 2005. For a short time in 2012, he was joint vice-chairman of the British Freedom Party (BFP). Robinson led the EDL from 2009 until 8 October 2013. He continued as an activist, and in 2015 became involved with the development of Pegida UK, a now defunct British chapter of the German-based far-right organisation Pegida. From 2017 to 2018, Robinson wrote for and appeared in online videos for Rebel News, a Canadian far-right political website.
Robinson has a long-standing criminal record. His convictions include for violence, stalking, financial and immigration frauds, drug possession and public order offences. He has been committed to prison for contempt of court. He has served at least four separate terms of imprisonment"

More detailed information about Tommy Robinson.
www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/19927-be-clear-tommy-robinson-is-a-violent-fascist-thug

If you support the BNP you will not see any issue with him.

You can think it is laughable. I know that any credibility the gender-critical movement had has gone.