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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

sarah ditum on Posie parker

1000 replies

narcymum · 23/09/2022 22:33

Just saw a tweet where she calls PP a 'poundshop marine le Pen'
WTF! why are women who are supposedly in this fight together actively trying to sabotage another woman's activism?
Can we not move away from this schoolyard shit?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 25/09/2022 10:28

When normal fairness is regarded as 'worship', you just know it's personal

absolutely!

i think the mr menno thing was a mistake. He may not have intended to be racist but that outfit was a massive error

AlienatedChildGrown · 25/09/2022 10:45

It’s not odd to question the character of those who wish to be leaders of we feminists.

We aren’t all feminists.

I used to be. But gave up feministing due to this board (although the name of it was different back then) years ago when the only person not dogpiling me for bringing up the cotton ceiling was a poster called DonkeyJacket. Not long after the discussion on this topic became so very very steeped in academic language that it was impenetrable to me, not an academic. So I fucked off from here mostly, and made my small rural town become concerned for mental well-being as I started warning them of the stinking cold Britain had caught that their kids would catch give it ten years or so. They aren’t questioning my sanity now, what with their kids wibbling on about gender identities becoming less and less unusual. Although being small, rural and Italian it’s more the kids lecturing their “awful, backwards, know nothing of life” parents rather than leaping onto hormones, thank God.

I think some people, whose names I recognise from way back when, have principles that they feel they must stand on, principles that are fundamental to who they, personally, are. However, I also suspect that some noses are out of joint. Because after 15 years of slog and social sanctions pushing back against TRA mission creep … their due limelight as the finish line comes into sight been “nicked”. By somebody who has one issue in common with them. But many other opinions, not so much. And she has had an appeal well beyond the circles they were able to reach. That’s a very human, very normal feeling. It has to be a really bitter pill stuck in your throat, to have given up so much, endured so much barracking, lost so many opportunities, suffered so much isolation when you were one of very few to stick your neck on the line and fought so hard … only to become less and less recognised for your Herculean efforts just as the finish line finally shows up on the horizon.

And some people may have both of those things going on. Cos, people will people

I pretty much appreciate any fucker (including AnyFucker), that is prepared to stick their neck out. It is no surprise to me that communists and fascists (real ones, not “I don’t agree with you! relabelled ones, I live in Italy) agree with the GC side. The vast majority of the entire planet agrees with the GC side. Being amenable to reality, less impressed with enforced lying on demand and all that jazz.

Wish some feminists would give those of us who are not feminists, not academics, not (or no longer) ardent lefties the benefit of the doubt that we are not as ignorant and easily led as perhaps we are perceived. Speaking for myself, I’m perfectly capable of agreeing with a huge range of people that a woman is an adult human female without immediately thinking “in which case I must also agree with you that Hitler wasn’t that bad or Stalin had a point”. And a lot of us don’t trust people who tell us “oh don’t listen to her/him ! They are a BAD person, with WRONG views”.

Some of us have a decade+ of being the “BAD” person with the “WRONG” views because we prefer reality to a socially enforced fiction.

And being told we “feminist” wrong.

AlienatedChildGrown · 25/09/2022 10:46

PS Appreciate must be odd to have to share board with non-feminists, but… for the longest time it was the only place the issue could be addressed and events followed.

Clymene · 25/09/2022 10:54

@Nineteen87 - a screenshot indicates nothing. Confused

Datun · 25/09/2022 10:56

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 25/09/2022 10:28

When normal fairness is regarded as 'worship', you just know it's personal

absolutely!

i think the mr menno thing was a mistake. He may not have intended to be racist but that outfit was a massive error

To me, the only error was in not realising that bad faith actors would exploit it.

But, either way, the determination to pretend it's a deliberate mocking of race, rather than mask clad TRAs is just plain daft.

DialSquare · 25/09/2022 10:56

Brilliant post AlienatedChildGrown. I've never been a feminist nor academic. I left school at 16 with average qualifications but I have thought that gender ideology is a load of nonsense for years so have been fighting back where I can to retain single sex spaces for women and girls. I think that may make me a feminist but not a radical or liberal one. Or maybe I'm just a femalist like PP!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2022 11:01

To me, the only error was in not realising that bad faith actors would exploit it.

But, either way, the determination to pretend it's a deliberate mocking of race, rather than mask clad TRAs is just plain daft.

This.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2022 11:03

Only person not dogpiling me for bringing up the cotton ceiling was a poster called DonkeyJacket

I don't know that poster, there was a fantastically articulate and insightful lesbian poster called DonkeySkin, was it her or was there another poster you're referring to?

SerotinaPickeler · 25/09/2022 11:07

Wish some feminists would give those of us who are not feminists, not academics, not (or no longer) ardent lefties the benefit of the doubt that we are not as ignorant and easily led as perhaps we are perceived. Speaking for myself, I’m perfectly capable of agreeing with a huge range of people that a woman is an adult human female without immediately thinking “in which case I must also agree with you that Hitler wasn’t that bad or Stalin had a point”.

👏 yes this. Thanks alien Italian lady (sorry can't remember your username but proper credit due to you here)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2022 11:07

Here's a screenshot from the Hearts of Oak livestream, their camera was set up on a tripod right in front of the speakers next to the SFW camera

I've no idea where any tripod was. What I said was that there was a documentary film crew there who had been invited to film, and it seems from reading tweets there was some confusion about who they were.

SerotinaPickeler · 25/09/2022 11:08

And also couldn't get bold to work, am definitely not feminist academic material.

TheClogLady · 25/09/2022 11:10

Datun · 25/09/2022 10:56

To me, the only error was in not realising that bad faith actors would exploit it.

But, either way, the determination to pretend it's a deliberate mocking of race, rather than mask clad TRAs is just plain daft.

I agree completely.

As if anyone actually doing blackface would wear a leotard! 🙄

perhaps we should call on Justin Trudeau for an expert opinion?

YouSirNeighMmmm · 25/09/2022 11:12

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 25/09/2022 10:28

When normal fairness is regarded as 'worship', you just know it's personal

absolutely!

i think the mr menno thing was a mistake. He may not have intended to be racist but that outfit was a massive error

He was categorically not trying to be racist. I don't think he was racist. But I agree that it was not a wise move and I doubt he will do it again.

AlienatedChildGrown · 25/09/2022 11:17

DialSquare · 25/09/2022 10:56

Brilliant post AlienatedChildGrown. I've never been a feminist nor academic. I left school at 16 with average qualifications but I have thought that gender ideology is a load of nonsense for years so have been fighting back where I can to retain single sex spaces for women and girls. I think that may make me a feminist but not a radical or liberal one. Or maybe I'm just a femalist like PP!

I’ve just given up all the labels I used to slap on myself (and others).

Feminist, Lefty, are just 2. I just have an opinion on an issue, any issue, and assume it’s the only issue that is relevant if I’m talking to somebody else about that issue. I see an issue flavoured by my head, my feelings, my experiences and they theirs. Since I manage to disagree with 99.9999% of the people I’ve ever met 😅I just assume we won’t agree about everything, all of the time.

And if they talk about it in six foot long sentences with a shit ton of jargon I have to look up …. I give up.

I personally have this issue AND a family, job, life of my own that all compete for my time & energy. This issue is entirely separate and rarely overlaps with any other aspect of my world.

I don’t think it’s necessarily the same for some people with very academic/feminist lives and circles. They may have considerably more overlap, it may even be woven into the foundational fabric of their lives. So I do understand that maybe it isn’t obvious to them that for the sake of This Issue a non-academic/properly feminist Life Pie has to take slivers from all the other Slices.

Which means we have to opt for accessible language and keep our focus on the point, rather than who is floating up or down in hierarchy of who’s who in GClandia.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 25/09/2022 11:18

DialSquare · 25/09/2022 10:56

Brilliant post AlienatedChildGrown. I've never been a feminist nor academic. I left school at 16 with average qualifications but I have thought that gender ideology is a load of nonsense for years so have been fighting back where I can to retain single sex spaces for women and girls. I think that may make me a feminist but not a radical or liberal one. Or maybe I'm just a femalist like PP!

Surely a feminist is someone who believes in or fights for the rights of women as distinct from men? Either you're a feminist or a misogynist as far as I am concerned.

But that's based on my interpretation of what feminism is. I completely respect your position if you don't feel willing or able to publicly align with other people who identify as feminists.

DialSquare · 25/09/2022 11:25

Don't get me wrong YouSirNeighMmmm I do align myself with feminists on many issues but I just don't consider myself an ardent feminist. I wouldn't pass any purity test that's for sure! I would be a feminist under your definition though as I do want us to retain our rights and I'm prepared to fight for that.

DialSquare · 25/09/2022 11:38

I agree with you regarding labels AlienatedChildGrown. Maybe that's where I'm going wrong. I should not be thinking of the label and just get on with the fighting for our rights bit.

AlienatedChildGrown · 25/09/2022 11:42

YouSirNeighMmmm · 25/09/2022 11:18

Surely a feminist is someone who believes in or fights for the rights of women as distinct from men? Either you're a feminist or a misogynist as far as I am concerned.

But that's based on my interpretation of what feminism is. I completely respect your position if you don't feel willing or able to publicly align with other people who identify as feminists.

New Mumsnet code won’t let me cut & paste at the moment.

I became a feminist at 18 when as a new bride I discovered that the old Les Dawson-ish jokes about conjugal rights were actually a reference to the law. Which meant my new husband could legally rape me. Which he never did. But I was fucking outraged.

ADHD & being outraged led to a lot of stomping around and saying “did you know about this ? I know right !! What a load of bollocking barstady crap ! We need to change this archaic disgusting shit and call it by a name women can actually understand, Rape is Legal Within marriage, cos “conjugal rights” has been a nudge nudge wink wink thing our generation grew up with but didn’t understand !”

Lots of people agreed, lots just back away slowly because … I was a bit much, if not quite a lot to land in front of you with my obsessive hyperfocus and ire. And lo, a feminist was born. Because I thought feminist meant believing women should have equal rights and opportunities under the law. And as far as I was aware a court would take a dim view of me penetrating my husband while he was asleep, but felt it was fine and dandy should he do it to me. Awake or not.

And then from 1987 onwards other feminists (not all, but vocal and very confident ones who had a far better education than me, and a yen for leadership, even if only the leader of a broken brained teenager) went to great lengths to outline exactly how I didn’t qualify for the title yet because I didn’t agree with them that PIV sex was always rape and a load of other stuff I thought was bollocks.

Once the internet came it got a little more frequent. Then web 2.0 happened. So it got even more frequent. Then Web 2.0 exploded into the foundation of the SM we have to day and it got way way way more frequent. Interestingly their own personal way of feministing was always the right one. So I couldn’t win & qualify unless I was prepared to do a 180 on several issues every day.

On this board quite a few years ago now, I finally gave up. And it’s fine. I can believe what I believe and/or know what is true without having to perform a purity test like a well trained seal every time I say something. And they don’t have the irritation of somebody who “thinks wrong”, trying to claim membership of their group.

Everybody gets to be happyish. Especially me. Cos, “performing seal purity tests” were not good for me. And the other Slices of my Life Pie got very fed up of losing my attention just so I could feel like I was too uneducated and evolved enough to be a feminist right

CuntAmongstThePigeons · 25/09/2022 11:44

Have we had any actual examples of Posie's alignment with the far right yet?

I mean other than people turning up to a public talk in a public place?

Also I was there the day Posie apparently harassed the BLM protesters. As many other people have said it was only when Black trans rights matter was yelled in response to our rally that people including Posie started asking what is a woman etc.

Just going to repeat what a million other posters have already said. I agree with Posie on some things and not on others, petty much the same as maaaaaaany other people.

I do however agree with her on this single issue and she's a bloody fabulous campaigner, she gets shit done and she attracts so much publicity.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 25/09/2022 11:45

Sorry - I should have posted a link to the screenshot re TRA and Hearts of Oak
mobile.twitter.com/Arachoid666/status/1573645200030932994

I think we have to decide now if feminism is for women or just for a small elite who pass the left-wing purity test.

TheClogLady · 25/09/2022 11:53

Does this make CursedE a ‘crypto-terf’?

we may need a Venn diagram!

Thelnebriati · 25/09/2022 11:58

The fruits of feminism are for all women.

The Right are not our allies.

ScreamingMeMe · 25/09/2022 11:59

Sooooo....

sarah ditum on Posie parker
MalagaNights · 25/09/2022 12:08

*Some of us have a decade+ of being the “BAD” person with the “WRONG” views because we prefer reality to a socially enforced fiction.

And being told we “feminist” wrong.*

Very resonant with me @AlienatedChildGrown

I've stopped calling myself a feminist because of years on these boards and the gender critical movement.
I'm a detransitioned feminist!

I just now say I'm interested in issues which impact women and girls.

This is because I don't subscribe to so many of the assumed tenets which accompany feminism or the best ways to support women e.g:
I'm not a socialist - I think it would be utterly disastrous for women.
I think there should be some restrictions on abortion. - women's rights are not the only moral issue.
I think brining children up within marriage is (generally) best for women, children and society. - I think what children need should be a higher consideration than what women want. Adults should sacrifice for children.
I think men are struggling with their role in society and that women have a role in addressing this.
I think men and women are partners and not enemies.
I don't believe we live in an oppressive patriarchy.
I don't believe that gender is just a social construct - so I'm not really gender critical just more reality based.
I think there are (in general) differences between men and women which lead to them taking on different roles. I just don't think the natural variability in interest and temperament means you are the opposite sex.
I think socialisation is linked to the biological roles, and manipulation of the socialisation process will not result in 'equity' for women. - I think we should challenge assumptions within socialisation but I don't think it's the solution as I don't think we're blank slates.

I do though think there are specific issues for women given our biological role which disadvantage us and I'm really interested in how to support girls and women to have full and happy lives with real autonomy, where they have opportunity to fulfill their potential.

I just know that the ways I think we can support women to do that, are so far removed from what 'feminists' believe, in fact it often enrages many, that I no longer use this term for myself.

AlienatedChildGrown · 25/09/2022 12:17

MalagaNights · 25/09/2022 12:08

*Some of us have a decade+ of being the “BAD” person with the “WRONG” views because we prefer reality to a socially enforced fiction.

And being told we “feminist” wrong.*

Very resonant with me @AlienatedChildGrown

I've stopped calling myself a feminist because of years on these boards and the gender critical movement.
I'm a detransitioned feminist!

I just now say I'm interested in issues which impact women and girls.

This is because I don't subscribe to so many of the assumed tenets which accompany feminism or the best ways to support women e.g:
I'm not a socialist - I think it would be utterly disastrous for women.
I think there should be some restrictions on abortion. - women's rights are not the only moral issue.
I think brining children up within marriage is (generally) best for women, children and society. - I think what children need should be a higher consideration than what women want. Adults should sacrifice for children.
I think men are struggling with their role in society and that women have a role in addressing this.
I think men and women are partners and not enemies.
I don't believe we live in an oppressive patriarchy.
I don't believe that gender is just a social construct - so I'm not really gender critical just more reality based.
I think there are (in general) differences between men and women which lead to them taking on different roles. I just don't think the natural variability in interest and temperament means you are the opposite sex.
I think socialisation is linked to the biological roles, and manipulation of the socialisation process will not result in 'equity' for women. - I think we should challenge assumptions within socialisation but I don't think it's the solution as I don't think we're blank slates.

I do though think there are specific issues for women given our biological role which disadvantage us and I'm really interested in how to support girls and women to have full and happy lives with real autonomy, where they have opportunity to fulfill their potential.

I just know that the ways I think we can support women to do that, are so far removed from what 'feminists' believe, in fact it often enrages many, that I no longer use this term for myself.

So much in common should start a tribe and get our own board so we can stop annoying the feminists by squatting on theirs for this issue. (baggies me not in charge of anything because my lack of organisational capacity and tendency to get distracted is legendary)

Rule one of tribe
”Don’t be a git”

Rule two of tribe
“No purity tests” cos that is “being a git”

Rule three
”No creating any more rules” cos that too is “gittish”

I can make stickers. I’m not bad at stickers.

😂

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