Antipodean fruit growers 2 - Canary in the internet coal mine

[Bosky]

Continuation thread from Antipodean fruit grower statement

A statement from the owner reads in part:

Downtime Update as of August 26th, 2022

"What I fear more than losing my site, being sued, or dealing with police is living in a world where [REDACTED] can [REDACTED] little boys and girls into [REDACTED] and [REDACTED], while normal people are not allowed to even discuss it.

The mob has already planned subsequent targets. Should we stay down, they will then attack 'gender critical' communities - especially those ran by and for women. No place can exist online which allows criticism of their [REDACTED], and nothing would excite them more than this power and domination struggle being inflicted on a female space instead."

I would link to the statement on the Internet Archive aka "Wayback Machine" but it has made all pages archived from the relevant site unsearchable (or deleted?).

Mumsnet does not permit links to the site Archive Today so that is out too.

1st Thread Antipodean fruit grower statement
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4620584-antipodean-fruit-grower-statement

Ta, Bosky.

This affair has also shown up how weak the archivers you mention in the new OP are. Basically there are two players we rely on:

First there's the "big one" - the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine - with lots of nice words about their "mission" to save stuff for posterity, but they will bulk delete stuff at the drop of a hat (eg Scientology criticism, Kiwi Farms, Taylor Lorenz's Twitter - thanks, uncle!).

Secondly there's the archive today you mention, but that appears to be run (anonymously?) just by someone effectively doing it as a hobby like Null. There's no guarantee of service, so that could well just be turned off entirely any time he feels like it. He's very explicit that his service is not a permanent archiving solution, and he has no backups.

Moral of the story is, if it's important, then archive to both for at least some redundancy, and keep local copies too!

Thank you Bosky, I am finding this unfolding drama enlightening and disturbing.

I'm following along with this. Longtime fruit lurker.
I use Cloudflare professionally and am very disappointed in them.

Thanks bosky.

Thank you!

Thanks for the new thread. scary that it's needed. Could one garden for KF currently? I'd happily do so.

There's a link to a "How to Support the Forum" post at the bottom of the main page - mainly BitCoin and the like as no normal payment processor provides service.

There are concerted efforts to demonetize this site and punish me for hosting it. I cannot use traditional payment processors like PayPal, Stripe, Braintree, Patreon, et cetera. Donating to the site is very convoluted but is the only way to do it. The site's operating expenses exceed $1000/mo because I have to buy far more infrastructure than a traditional website in order to handle our immense complaint volume. Traditional hosting hosting are not an option for us and I have to spend a lot to keep us alive. This is done without the benefit of any parent company or sponsor. The only reason I can afford to do this is because of small dollar donors. I am unemployable because of reputational damage done in association with the site; if I could work a regular job doing IT I would and I have tried.

Last year there was a sale of commemorative silver Kiwi Farms coins, which was kind of amusing, but I don't think it resulted in net income...

Thanks for new thread.

Thanks for the new thread, it's really chilling what's happening right now. I'll echo what a previous poster said always archive any important pages offline.

This is probably a good time to remind everyone that one of the consequences of Cloudflare dropping Moon’s hosting company was the sudden disappearance of the website for Action Zealandia … a neo-Nazi group based in New Zealand. Their website disappeared because Moon’s company 1776 Solutions Inc was selling them hosting services.

Which is why it really pains me that Mumsnet is providing a forum for its members to post information about fundraising and support for Moon.

Make no mistake about Moon and what he really is. He has been providing literal neo-Nazis with an Internet platform on which to metastasise their toxic ideology. He is happy to make money from hosting toxic men that are united by their collective hate.

If supporting Moon seems like a worthwhile outcome for your activism then, quite frankly, you’re failing to make make the world a better place. Nothing good or worthwhile can come from supporting a person who is willing to assist groups pf disgruntled men that want to put their boots on your faces.

groups pf disgruntled men that want to put their boots on your faces.

What, like TRAs, you mean?

Never heard this particular claim before - not found any confirmation. It is true that that site went offline some time in August, at least, from archives, but can't pin down the timing at all precisely.

It's conceivable Null offered them hosting - might be the sort of thing he might do as a free-speech absolutist - but can't find any record of him confirming or denying.

Or it could be complete and utter bullshit amplified by Keffals and just based on the fact the site is coincidentally down.

But I do miss the days when those allegedly on the left understood how important it was to uphold everyone's rights.

As with Kiwi Farms, if you've got some beef against any group, use the proper legal channels. Mob justice is not justice, and if these groups are as dangerous as you think they are, then why are you encouraging more mob justice? And why are you targetting Kiwi Farms, not them?

Are you really so confident in that "bad people" would never actually be able to put their boot on your face, that you feel fine with there being no bars to putting boots on faces, so you can use yours to stamp on them?

Your "anti-fascist" posturing is not serious. The acceptance of authoritarian methods for your side shows you do not really fear those you are "fighting".

More harm is caused by a system that can extra-judicially silence "bad people" than a system that allows them to speak.

The left used to know that - recall the ACLU specifically standing up for neo-Nazis' right to march. They've fallen a long way.

Several prominent Gender Critical people have been banned from PayPal, Patreon, and even had their Bank Accounts closed. However, the financial exile in this case has been extraordinarily thorough.

I am aware of one option that does not involve cryptocurrency. However, if I link to it then I think my post might be deleted and/or it might result in that service being targeted for closure.

This article is interesting:

Section 230 isn't the problem, Payment Networks are

Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act is one of the most important pieces of legislation in American history. Passed into law in 1996, it has overseen the entirety of the consumer Internet’s development. Its premise is simple: Internet service providers and platform operators are not responsible for civil damages that result from user-generated content that they host or manage. These protections are why the United States is the first choice for hosting any digital service. Without them, the entire world would suffer a less free Internet.

I have operated a controversial website called the [REDACTED] for 8 years and was featured in ZeroHedge in 2019 after telling New Zealand police I would not be surrendering my user’s information to them. My website thrives and doubles in size each year, primarily thanks to Section 230. I can allow my users to say almost anything they want without having to worry about being sued for what they say. Without these essential protections, I would not be able to host in the United States.

Unfortunately, Section 230 has been defamed as the reason Facebook, Twitter, Google, et al behave the way they do. This is not true. These businesses censor because they have personal motivations to do so. More importantly, they have financial motivations to do so.

I hope to convince a reasonable person that:

1. Payment networks must be regulated to give fair access.
2. Section 230 is essential and modifying it harms online speech.
3. Big tech does not need Section 230, but you do.
4. You should learn how to use cryptocurrencies right now.

Full article:
madattheinternet.substack.com/p/section-230-isnt-the-problem-payment

If that article disappears, search for the URL on Archive Today.

Glad to see Null is holding firm

Free the 🥝 free the speech.

Which is why it really pains me that Mumsnet is providing a forum for its members to post information about fundraising and support for Moon.

Is this a threat that MN is next?

Much equality, much antifa… hope the jack boots don’t pinch 🙄

I get threatened by the people that Null is actually trying to document as they are the ones wanting to put their jackboots in my face.

If the Nazis are breaking the law, call the cops @landOFconfusion - I'm sure they can take some time out of harassing women for their stickers to sort you out.

Receipts please? Any evidence for this claim?

Thing about the internet is you can't look at people's ankles. In Liverpool, if I felt a bloke walking past me was a bit off, I could look to see if his socks were on the outside. In Berlin, I looked for jackboots. Online, unless you do lots of online searching, you have to take people at face value.

Mumsnet members are soliciting donations to support a person who has been hosting websites for neo-Nazi hate groups. So I am asking people to stop for a moment, step back from their keyboards, and think seriously before they send money to Moon.

Moon may well be entitled to free speech, but he is not entitled to freedom from its consequences. If he wants to sell hosting services that amplify the voices of neo-Nazi hate groups like Action Zealandia or continue hosting videos that document and glorify mass killings such as the 2019 Christchurch Mosque Shootings then people deserve to know this before they start sending him money.

Copying this from the thread "Hate Speech on Mumsnet", as a reminder of the sort of people who are actually, right now, presenting a real, rather than hypothetical, threat to women who just want to speak to each other about things that matter to them:

@mirax It is startling that we are living in a world where mums who breastfeed babies are having to organise themselves clandestinely; wasn't it long ago that pedophiles were the ones who had to hide?

Because of the level of secrecy required to operate MfM, this website is in danger of disappearing soon. Reprinted with permission of the Mothers for Mother authors I am republishing a series of their posts as a form of archiving them for future readers who appreciate the sanity of those who believe in biological facts, over the thoughts of those who posit that nothing is more important than what they feel or believe about a made up world of their choosing.

lucyleader.substack.com/p/redefining-breastfeeding

I'd place the blame on those who sleepwalk into authoritarianism and policed speech.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4630447-hate-speech-on-mumsnet?reply=119956422

Moon may well be entitled to free speech, but he is not entitled to freedom from its consequences

You may well be entitled to free speech, but you are not entitled to freedom from its consequences.

Maybe you should take a step back from the keyboard and wonder why so many women on a feminist forum would rather align themselves with Null than you.

More specifically why we find Null's principles less threatening than yours.

been hosting websites for neo-Nazi hate groups this is such bullshit. Transparent propaganda attempt. Nobody here believes it, move on.

It is neither bullshit nor propaganda. It is an uncomfortable fact that people need to be aware of if they are considering sending money to Moon.

@landOFconfusion

Your tone sounds familiar. Did you namechange?

It is an uncomfortable fact that people need to be aware of if they are considering sending money to Moon.

That's lovely. Now go and hassle CloudFlare, Odyssey, Telegram, the Internet Archive, and all their customers, seeing as they currently are definitely providing service to your rival neo-Nazi group.

If Null ever did provide service, he currently isn't, is he? What with requests being processed by CloudFlare and not getting any further.

So you can spend the rest of your life getting CloudFlare to take Bad People down one by one. It might be a nice hobby - they've shown they'll do it, so keep going. Start your "DropActionZealandia" campaign at them and leave us alone.

And, you know, you can't make us support your fascist hate group by insisting that you'd only ever direct your fascist hate to other fascist hate groups.

The very fact you're here suggests we're already on your long list of Bad People Who Need To Go Away. Shudder.

We'll stick with the freedom of speech and liberal democracy, if it's all the same.

Ta. Catch you later.