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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Antipodean fruit growers 2 - Canary in the internet coal mine

1000 replies

Bosky · 13/09/2022 06:04

Continuation thread from Antipodean fruit grower statement

A statement from the owner reads in part:

Downtime Update as of August 26th, 2022

"What I fear more than losing my site, being sued, or dealing with police is living in a world where [REDACTED] can [REDACTED] little boys and girls into [REDACTED] and [REDACTED], while normal people are not allowed to even discuss it.

The mob has already planned subsequent targets. Should we stay down, they will then attack 'gender critical' communities - especially those ran by and for women. No place can exist online which allows criticism of their [REDACTED], and nothing would excite them more than this power and domination struggle being inflicted on a female space instead."

I would link to the statement on the Internet Archive aka "Wayback Machine" but it has made all pages archived from the relevant site unsearchable (or deleted?).

Mumsnet does not permit links to the site Archive Today so that is out too.

1st Thread Antipodean fruit grower statement
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4620584-antipodean-fruit-grower-statement

OP posts:
Thread gallery
56
Bewarethesealions · 14/09/2022 07:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Theundertaker · 14/09/2022 07:05

He is happy to make money from hosting toxic men that are united by their collective hate.

Can you get pornhub taken down next please? You know, a site that literally profits off women and girls being raped and sexually exploited?

landOFconfusion · 14/09/2022 07:49

NecessaryScene · 14/09/2022 06:19

It is an uncomfortable fact that people need to be aware of if they are considering sending money to Moon.

That's lovely. Now go and hassle CloudFlare, Odyssey, Telegram, the Internet Archive, and all their customers, seeing as they currently are definitely providing service to your rival neo-Nazi group.

If Null ever did provide service, he currently isn't, is he? What with requests being processed by CloudFlare and not getting any further.

So you can spend the rest of your life getting CloudFlare to take Bad People down one by one. It might be a nice hobby - they've shown they'll do it, so keep going. Start your "DropActionZealandia" campaign at them and leave us alone.

And, you know, you can't make us support your fascist hate group by insisting that you'd only ever direct your fascist hate to other fascist hate groups.

The very fact you're here suggests we're already on your long list of Bad People Who Need To Go Away. Shudder.

We'll stick with the freedom of speech and liberal democracy, if it's all the same.

Ta. Catch you later.

Your false equivalences are tiresome. CloudFlare, Odyssey, and Telegram are neither soliciting donations nor requesting moral support from Mumsnet users.

I had hoped that this discussion would make it beyond the first page before it started being brigaded by Moonatics. But here we are.

GingerPCatt · 14/09/2022 07:53

landOFconfusion · 14/09/2022 07:49

Your false equivalences are tiresome. CloudFlare, Odyssey, and Telegram are neither soliciting donations nor requesting moral support from Mumsnet users.

I had hoped that this discussion would make it beyond the first page before it started being brigaded by Moonatics. But here we are.

So no evidence to back up your claims about JM hosting a far right website.

NecessaryScene · 14/09/2022 08:04

CloudFlare, Odyssey, and Telegram are neither soliciting donations nor requesting moral support from Mumsnet users.

CloudFlare, at least, is receiving money from Mumsnet users, because they handle DDoS for Mumsnet itself.

If Null or CloudFlare were funding neo-Nazis, I'd certainly not want to send any money their way. But if they're merely defunding them, as you suggest, I don't have any particular issue.

I had hoped that this discussion would make it beyond the first page before it started being brigaded by Moonatics. But here we are.

Ah, this is part of the issue, perhaps. This is a continuation thread. You missed the first 40 pages, it seems. Go away and have a read. You might learn something.

landOFconfusion · 14/09/2022 08:09

GingerPCatt · 14/09/2022 07:53

So no evidence to back up your claims about JM hosting a far right website.

The link between Moon and Action Zealandia has been published in numerous New Zealand online and print news outlets.

Here is a link to one of many similar examples:

White supremacist group infiltrated, Newsroom, Marc Daalder, Sep 07 2022

NecessaryScene · 14/09/2022 08:32

The link between Moon and Action Zealandia has been published in numerous New Zealand online and print news outlets.

That's just a restatement of the same assertion publicised by Keffals, isn't it?

Making an assertion, and providing a reference to someone else making the same assertion isn't how evidence works. Or at least should work.

I know there's a lot of Keffals->press->Wikipedia->Keffals going on at the minute. (Relevant xkxd cartoon).

A weeks-long campaign to take KiwiFarms offline succeeded over the weekend, with the security provider Cloudflare dropping the site. That appears to have removed Action Zealandia's protection as well – the site is currently inaccessible.

"appears"...

"The site is currently inaccessible." True. But there's no actual explanation of how they think CloudFlare blocking KiwiFarms is supposed to make another site still being served by CloudFlare suddenly disappear, let alone any evidence of a connection in the first place.

Bosky · 14/09/2022 08:34

landOFconfusion · 13/09/2022 23:49

It is neither bullshit nor propaganda. It is an uncomfortable fact that people need to be aware of if they are considering sending money to Moon.

It is an "uncomfortable fact" that free-speech absolutism means exactly what it says on the tin.

It only takes a little digging to discover an audit trail that proves your claims are true, while most of the other allegations being made about Moon are hotly disputed or unprovable.

I have never seen it suggested that Moon either funds the site(s) hosted or provides hosting for free - or makes any profit from the exercise - but you are right, landOFconfusion, potential donors should be aware of this "uncomfortable fact".

Free-speech absolutism has a long history on the liberal left and, until relatively recently, it was routinely defended, even extending to the rights of nazis and neo-nazis when within the law. Those who wish to take that line can still find themselves in good company, with strong arguments in favour of free speech within the law and against censorship of deplorable views that they happen to abhor.

Once a Bastion of Free Speech, the A.C.L.U. Faces an Identity Crisis
New York Times - 28 Sept 2021
An organization that has defended the First Amendment rights of Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan is split by an internal debate over whether supporting progressive causes is more important.
archive.ph/www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html

Film explores why a Jewish former ACLU head defended Nazis’ right to free speech
The Times of Israel - 20 Oct 2020
In ‘Mighty Ira,’ streaming Oct. 9, activist lawyer sticks to his guns about Skokie march, a defining moment of his 34-year career — and befriends a Holocaust survivor who opposed
www.timesofisrael.com/film-explores-why-a-jewish-former-aclu-head-defended-nazis-right-to-free-speech/

Former ACLU president says censoring hate speech can backfire – just like it did in Nazi Germany
Jewish Telegraph Agency - 3 Sept 2020
Facebook, Twitter and other social media platforms face increasing pressure to crack down against anti-Semitism and other forms of hate speech. This summer, the Anti-Defamation League and NAACP led a one-month corporate boycott against advertising on Facebook, and a group of British Jews led a 24-hour boycott of Twitter.

Nadine Strossen, the former head of the ACLU and a daughter of Holocaust survivors who is generally supportive of the ADL, believes such moves to censor hate speech are generally ill-advised.
www.jta.org/2020/09/03/opinion/former-aclu-president-says-censoring-hate-speech-can-backfire-just-like-it-did-in-nazi-germany

The Skokie Case: How I Came To Represent The Free Speech Rights Of Nazis
ACLU - By David Goldberger - March 2, 2020
In 1977, the ACLU of Illinois received a call from a Nazi leader complaining that his planned demonstration had been blocked. The ensuing legal battle, and the controversy around it, would test the organization’s commitment to the First Amendment.
www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/rights-protesters/skokie-case-how-i-came-represent-free-speech-rights-nazis

Why the ACLU is right to represent the Ku Klux Klan
The Guardian - 29 June 2012
Just as the ACLU safeguarded the first amendment in Skokie in the 1970s, so it should defend the KKK's free speech rights now
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/29/aclu-right-represent-ku-klux-klan

Meanwhile, "gender critical" sites, mostly run by and for women, are being targeted for censorship via internet annihilation as bastions of "fascism" and the "alt-right", for the hateful "crimes" of:

  • maintaining the material reality of biological sex,
  • defending the rights of women and protection of children
  • cataloguing the dangerous and deplorable behaviour of certain individuals and institutions
  • women talking to each other about what matters to them, often preferably absent the presence of males.
Free speech absolutism is a challenging concept. Language has power to oppress and coerce and silencing is disempowering. It is natural to wish to use language to our advantage and silence those who threaten us.

However, in practice, restrictions on speech are wielded by, and most benefit, those who dominate society and culture.

Women, females, the majority of the population but the largest minoritized class, have the most to gain from free speech absolutism. The impact is magnified because speech is both the weapon and shield of choice for women against the overpowering physicality and fiscal advantage of men.

The rebellion of #womenwontwheesht is a non-violent protest against both compelled speech and censorship, shifting the focus away from policing speech for our protection and towards pushing away barriers to liberation.

Movements for civil rights and civil liberties - including freedom of speech - arise from the downtrodden, at the grass-roots. By contrast, "Social Justice" is an astro-turfed movement of the managerial class serving corporate interests.

A whopping great clue is in the fact that social justice initiatives are driven, implemented and enforced by the university-educated, the privileged.

"Creatives" who tick the right "progressive" boxes are favoured by grant-giving bodies. Human Resources staff, people whose main qualifications are making rules for the conduct of others and disciplining those who break them, to the point of removing their means of making a living.

Politicians, police, teachers, health and social care professionals, union officials, all university-entry and indoctrinated to eradicate species-survival instincts of fairness and empathy. Police prioritising "hateful" social media posts over call-outs to active crimes of violence and burglaries. Women in prison punished for "misgendering" male inmates.

The horror is that this has cascaded down to primary school, with little children being punished by teachers for saying what they see, and mobbed by gangs of self-righteous bullies. Encouraged to inform on their parents too - anyone who cannot see shades of Hitler Youth and the Stasi in this is wilfully blind or woefully ignorant.

So, free speech:

  • bad for self-described nazis (they exist and booting them off the internet will not make them go away)
  • bad for closet-fascists (looking at you, so-called "antifa")
  • good for women (we exist too, we are not going away and we are not shutting up either).
OP posts:
RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 14/09/2022 08:45

Your false equivalences are tiresome

thats not whats tiresome on this thread 😒

no one ever seems to have evidence of this stuff….

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 14/09/2022 08:47

Oh and traditionally continuation threads (as someone pointed out, theres another 40 page thread which you don’t seem to have read) die a bit of a natural death

so well done you for making sure this stays front and centre

(i think this one will run and run without your help but for someone who wants the conversation to stop you are doing a shit job)

AlisonDonut · 14/09/2022 09:02

Two things I know.

If anyone suggests sending money to anyone here, report the post and Mumsnet will delete it.

If a wasp start buzzing round you, swatting it usually just riles it up. Sit still or walk away.

landOFconfusion · 14/09/2022 09:02

NecessaryScene · 14/09/2022 08:32

The link between Moon and Action Zealandia has been published in numerous New Zealand online and print news outlets.

That's just a restatement of the same assertion publicised by Keffals, isn't it?

Making an assertion, and providing a reference to someone else making the same assertion isn't how evidence works. Or at least should work.

I know there's a lot of Keffals->press->Wikipedia->Keffals going on at the minute. (Relevant xkxd cartoon).

A weeks-long campaign to take KiwiFarms offline succeeded over the weekend, with the security provider Cloudflare dropping the site. That appears to have removed Action Zealandia's protection as well – the site is currently inaccessible.

"appears"...

"The site is currently inaccessible." True. But there's no actual explanation of how they think CloudFlare blocking KiwiFarms is supposed to make another site still being served by CloudFlare suddenly disappear, let alone any evidence of a connection in the first place.

You are selectively quoting the linked news article. Here is the paragraph that you didn’t quote.

“Action Zealandia's website was hosted by the owner of overseas hate site KiwiFarms, which coordinates real world stalking and harassment of minorities and critics. Multiple suicides have been linked to KiwiFarms and the website also infamously hosts copies of the March 15 terrorist's livestream.”

KiwiFarms has been the subject of considerable media interest in New Zealand due to Moon’s childish refusal to cooperate with authorities investigating the 2019 Christchurch Mosque Shootings, and more recently for the link between Moon and the neo-Nazi group Action Zealandia.

IdiotCreatures · 14/09/2022 09:37

This is where I archive things, not sure if it's one of the sites mentioned (well I know it's not the Wayback machine, but I've always found that website an annoyance to use...)

archive.ph/

Slipslide · 14/09/2022 09:48

If supporting Moon seems like a worthwhile outcome for your activism then, quite frankly, you’re failing to make make the world a better place. Nothing good or worthwhile can come from supporting a person who is willing to assist groups pf disgruntled men that want to put their boots on your faces.

I'll spend my money and support who I want thank you very much.

I happen to think Null & Kiwifarms do make the world a better place for women and girls.

NecessaryScene · 14/09/2022 10:10

You are selectively quoting the linked news article. Here is the paragraph that you didn’t quote.

And what was relevant in those bits I didn't quote?

Let's go through them. Why not?

“Action Zealandia's website was hosted by the owner of overseas hate site KiwiFarms,

Another part of the repeated assertion with no evidence - an assertion already incorporated by implication in the bit I did quote.

The rest of this has nothing to do with the Action Zealandia thing, and has already been covered in the previous 40 pages you haven't read...

which coordinates real world stalking and harassment of minorities and critics.

Yes, we, all know how this is framed. Keffals similarly "coordinates real world stalking and harassment of minorities and critics" by the same measure. Even going so far as to attempt to shut down their perfectly legal services. Kiwi Farms does not attempt to force anyone down, because it would interfere with their aim of pointing and laughing. Although they do sometimes hope their compilation of evidence would be of interest to authorities, in the more serious cases.

Multiple suicides have been linked to KiwiFarms

Not as many as have been "linked to" Twitter, say. And even with that incredibly vague framing intended to suggest causation without outright saying so, I believe that "multiple" is 2 actual and one unconfirmed, right?

and the website also infamously hosts copies of the March 15 terrorist's livestream.

True, I believe. (Although haven't seen it myself, as really not the sort of thing I'd want to see).

It records a hell of a lot of unpleasant stuff (that I also wouldn't want to see), and on principle refuses requests to take them down unless they come through proper legal authorities. Maintaining copies of unpleasant stuff as evidence is a large chunk of the whole point of the site.

Now, if he was operating under New Zealand law, I think he could be required to take that down, but he's operating under the more permissive US law, where he's perfectly in his rights to archive that.

KiwiFarms has been the subject of considerable media interest in New Zealand due to Moon’s childish refusal to cooperate with authorities investigating the 2019 Christchurch Mosque Shootings

Refusing to follow unlawful orders from a foreign country is "childish"?

One could argue that a belief that a country can order everyone in the world to hide what they want hidden is rather "childish".

and more recently for the link between Moon and the neo-Nazi group Action Zealandia.

And repeat the assertion and circular media loop, why not...

MargaritaPie · 14/09/2022 11:45

There's a current thread on kiwifarms with the title "The Wayback Machine is run by tranny pedophiles".

Kiwifarm's "game" I understand is to dox and harass, but they "justify" this by claiming they are doxxing and harassing "pedos and groomers".

One problem with this is they are falsely accusing anyone they dislike as a pedo. Any org who does something they don't like gets it and anyone who identifies as a transperson and their parents gets it.

IMO the site continues to pose a threat to the safety of transpeople and people supportive of them.

dolorsit · 14/09/2022 11:49

Glad to see the expert is back Wink

kittensinthekitchen · 14/09/2022 11:55

Kiwifarm's "game" I understand is to dox and harass

Then your information and 'understanding' of their 'game' is incorrect.

IMO the site continues to pose a threat to the safety of transpeople and people supportive of them.

@MargaritaPie

Whereas "transpeople and people supportive of them" aren't attempting to threaten Mumsnet, women or people supportive of them...?

Antipodean fruit growers 2 - Canary in the internet coal mine
Antipodean fruit growers 2 - Canary in the internet coal mine
Antipodean fruit growers 2 - Canary in the internet coal mine
kittensinthekitchen · 14/09/2022 11:55

And another

Antipodean fruit growers 2 - Canary in the internet coal mine
TheClogLady · 14/09/2022 11:58

may well be entitled to free speech, but he is not entitled to freedom from its consequences

This phrase sets off my ‘fascist claiming to be antifascist’ klaxon like no other.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 14/09/2022 12:10

TheClogLady · 14/09/2022 11:58

may well be entitled to free speech, but he is not entitled to freedom from its consequences

This phrase sets off my ‘fascist claiming to be antifascist’ klaxon like no other.

Ha, quite.
It’s ‘how to say you don’t understand free speech without saying you don’t understand free speech.’

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 14/09/2022 12:45

MargaritaPie · 14/09/2022 11:45

There's a current thread on kiwifarms with the title "The Wayback Machine is run by tranny pedophiles".

Kiwifarm's "game" I understand is to dox and harass, but they "justify" this by claiming they are doxxing and harassing "pedos and groomers".

One problem with this is they are falsely accusing anyone they dislike as a pedo. Any org who does something they don't like gets it and anyone who identifies as a transperson and their parents gets it.

IMO the site continues to pose a threat to the safety of transpeople and people supportive of them.

You are on there a LOT

weird

TheClogLady · 14/09/2022 12:51

Marg is on the farms so much Marg should consider remunerating Null for the bandwidth used.

NecessaryScene · 14/09/2022 12:51

You are on there a LOT. weird

Especially for a site that's supposed to be "down". Don't you know you're supposed to be celebrating your glorious "we took down Kiwi Farms" victory?

Not terribly on message...

beaucorbeau · 14/09/2022 13:10

Site's back on at least one domain. Nice to see that JM has been made aware that terfy MNetters are behind him!

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