What rights don't transpeople have?

[CrossStichQueen]

It's a question I have seen asked many times and it is rarely answered. When it is its usually a list of things that are not "rights" or a list of rights/demands not held by anyone else.

It appears Katie M has provided a list of Countries with each trans right they don't provide. KM has also provided source links however many just link to a chart with dots indicating the "trans right" that country doesn't have. No explanation as to why.
For example:

Albania - No legal name change at all.

Quick look and it turns out in Albania nobody can legally change their name. Anyone can socially change their name and change it on their passport and driving licence but nobody can change their BC. So this is not a right others have and trans are denied as implied by KM it is in fact the same rule for all.

While Albania like many countries is behind on LGB support/rights it appears that the lack of rights transpeople do not have are the same rights those who are LGB are also denied yet it seems only the fact that transpeople don't have them is what matters.

The list for each country is very much the same for those countries that share a geographical location/religion/culture and so the sources linked appear to be the same dot chart I mentioned earlier.

The UK list is interesting.

No legal gender recognition without mental health diagnosis. This only applies to changing your BC and the person must have medical support to state they have/had gender dysphoria. Nobody else in the UK has the right to change their BC

No legal gender recognition without spousal consent. This is so that spouses are not forced to be in a now same sex marriage without their consent once the transperson has changed their BC. Transpeople appear to want to remove the consent of others in a legally binding contract which marriage is

No legal ban on conversion therapy. The Conversion therapy ban in the UK is made up of 3 existing Acts. Sexual offences Act 2003. Criminal justice Act 1988 and the offences against person Act 1861. This covers all physical acts and medication abuse used in order to "convert a person's sexual orientation or gender identity". What the trans movement want is affectively counselling of transpeople banned. This means no transperson could seek therapy if they have feelings of GD or confusion around their gender. That is not a right.

No legal parenthood recognition. Any male or female who parents a child has the right to be legally recognised as either their mother or father dependingon the persons sex. Legally in the UK if you are the biological or adoptive parent you are legally recognised as mother if female and father if male. That right applies to all including transpeople.

No legal right to religious marriage. In the UK no religious organisation can be compelled to marry same sex couples so this is a right LGB people do not have also so why does it only matter for transpeople?

No practical access to trans healthcare. This is just a lie. Transpeople have the same access to healthcare as anyone else in the UK. What the source linked discusses is that some transpeople when polled stated they felt prejudice from some healthcare professionals which "put them off" seeking healthcare. While this prejudice is wrong it is sadly experienced by many different people due to their culture/racce/religion/sexual orientation. Transpeople have the same RIGHT to access healthcare un the UK as anyone else

I havent gone through the whole list but looking at certain countries the rights trans people claim not to have are either the same for all trans or not, women do not have those rights either or those in the LGB community also do not have those rights. It seems to me that the trans Community do not want equal rights or rights for women or those in the wider LGB community they just want trans rights (most of which are not rights) for transpeople only and screw everyone else.

What you don’t get to do, is to ‘bow’ out like you have just faced a hostile crowd.

In fairness, I don't think anyone really thinks that's happened, least of all them.

People have a need to save face. So they will present it as 'bowing out' even though they know that's utter horseshit.

However this ...

all that's happened is you present ... unconvincing arguments and people discuss the lack of substance to your arguments

Will be obvious to them if they have two brain cells to rub together.

Given space and time their position might well shift. Radicalised by Mumsnet and all that. 😉

If I read it right there was also a suggestion that trans people be trained to undertake this surgery themselves ?

If I read it right there was also a suggestion that trans people be trained to undertake this surgery themselves?

Yeah that's right. Free med school I expect.

And the free on-demand depilation. Is that to be available to non-trans people or do the rest of us have to carry on paying for our waxing ?

Ok. What in the post you highlighted do you think hasn’t happened and isn’t currently happening?

Why do you think that post is extreme?

Is it because it is uncomfortable to see it written down? Or is it because you don’t think this really is happening? Or you think this has little impact on female?

By the way, you sound like you actually know very little about this.

’But it’s a strong, vocal minority that let you down and, honestly, I think do more harm to the cause than good.’

It is because of a strong, vocal minority of women that we are even able to discuss this now. Because 2-3 years ago, there was no debate.

It’s “them” vs “us” and everyone is wrong. There’s no middle ground.

Can you please do us the favour of telling us what this middle ground looks like?

When we have natal women who want to preserve sex specific spaces (for reasons of safety, opportunity, religious rules, etc) and natal men, now Transwomen, who think they should have access to them.

I mean this in total good faith, please. Id love to know what you think about this.

The rights/needs/desires of women requiring sex segregated spaces and Transwomen wanting access to these spaces are in direct opposition.

This needs to be acknowledged as a starting point.

And I don't see what 'middle ground' exists here. I would love to hear a view on that however.

What rights don't transpeople have?

To trample over the rights of everyone else, especially women. Though given the current direction of travel, I could be wrong, sadly....

I'm all ears to hear what this middle ground is and what the compromises are.

A couple of questions for you @Trying20 - do you think women should compromise their safety, dignity, privacy and comfort? and do you think women are deserving of having their safety, dignity, privacy and comfort considered?

there are some really valid points, and some really complex intricacies to be worked through in this.

Actually, it's not really that complex. As I've said, rights/needs/desires of both these sides are in direct opposition.

You will have to choose who to prioritise here.

And I do understand why prioritising Transwomen has more social cache right now than vulnerable women. And it's less scary because the vulnerable women don't have much clout to shame you on social media.

But you cannot give both sides what they're looking for here and hand wringing about the 'complex intricacies' that you are no closer to working out than anyone else won't help the women who are going to suffer when their sex specific spaces disappear.

@Trying20 says 'watch thread' at the bottom of the page, just click on it. Hopefully, that'll work.

Sorry?

You didn’t say which things you don’t think have happened regarding males in female prisons, sports, and females being excluded from rape support groups?

You just repeated about extremism.

But apparently, there's no debate now. Because this poster is "unwilling to compromise".

Where do you want to compromise on males sharing female prison cells and facilities, males participating in female sports and females being excluded from rape support?

That is the points I am referring to.

And no, if you actually had been following these issues, you would know that these very incidences came in due to no debate being allowed at policy making level.

I agree it shouldn’t be at the expense of women.

But nor should it be at the expense of trans people.

But what about when the rights of those groups collide, Trying20?

But what about when the rights of those groups collide

This is the crucial point. And you're failing to engage with it Trying20

Thread is fast- moving - have you at least answered the OP question, trying? Apols if I've missed it.

Even though they self-diagnosed.... Absolutely!

Honestly, and I’ve said this everytime the discussion comes up here - there are some really valid points, and some really complex intricacies to be worked through in this. It’s not an easy issue. I think there are a lot of people on Mumsnet (and out in the world) who are sceptical as well

This would be where you and I diverge - there is nothing remotely complex about preserving single sex female only spaces and services for females only and providing additional spaces and services where deemed necessary.

I cannot understand why people are focussing so much time and energy in pitching trans rights as an attack on women’s rights.

Really??!!! Have you read the threads here?

Yup, you're going to bow out because you cannot answer some basic questions about religious or gender-critical women's rights....

I get what you're saying, but here's the dilemma - where do you draw the line? Imagine this scenario; you're a father. Each week you go shopping and your 6 year old daughter goes into the female toilets by herself. Each week, one person goes in with her. Week 1) a woman you know 2) a woman you don't know 3) a lovely transwoman you know (hasn't had surgery yet) 4) a transwoman you don't know 5) a stereotypical male looking person with blue hair and a flowery headband 6) a middle aged scruffy person of male appearance. All 6 of these people when asked would tell you they are a woman. Who makes you feel anxious? Who do you have the right to challenge about using the female toilet? Can you judge a transwoman by her clothes? At what point do you have the right to enter the toilet to check on your daughter? I don't hate trans people but once you look at this logically it is hard not to see the problem with access to female single sex spaces.

I fully understand that some women might feel uncomfortable, or unsafe, or undignified in a situation where they're forced to use these facilities alongside trans people. I also understand that women in some very vulnerable situations (such as rape crisis centres) as outlined by previous posters also might feel intimidated, unsafe, or uncomfortable around trans people

It's not about 'trans people', it's about male people. How they identify is irrelevant.

You don't remove single sex services and spaces and make ANY female feel unsafe, uncomfortable or undignified just because some males want access or validation.

From a quick google, in my city, there are a few places that would offer in person support to someone who had been sexually assaulted. I was a bit impressed/surprised actually that there was one for men. Your own mileage may very, and there might be different services in your local area.I couldn't find one a local centre, however, for trans people.

I'm not saying that means they should automatically get to use the female (or male, in some cases) one. I'm not. What I'm saying is the services need to me there. I think some extreme trans rights activists may well be better suited to focussing their energies on ensuring those services are available for Trans people. I'm not denying, and some of the links in this thread exemplify it, that there are some really, really bonkers extremists who ARE trying to encroach on female spaces. But they're exactly that, they're the extremists. And I'm not saying ignore them, but the extremists are not "them".

You seem to be suggesting that male trans people demanding to use services set up for women is an extreme position. It's not. It's the mainstream one and they're supported in this by the service providers.

Have a look at this thread. The OP is suing her local rape crisis centre because they are refusing to offer a female only service.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4539958-big-update-on-rape-crisis-legal-challenge

I agree it all sounds extreme and insane, but this is where we are. You don't seem to have a clue about what is actually going on.

See also people like Lisa Nandy, who said that male rapists should go to women's prisons if that is what they want.