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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What rights don't transpeople have?

775 replies

CrossStichQueen · 29/08/2022 08:46

It's a question I have seen asked many times and it is rarely answered. When it is its usually a list of things that are not "rights" or a list of rights/demands not held by anyone else.

It appears Katie M has provided a list of Countries with each trans right they don't provide. KM has also provided source links however many just link to a chart with dots indicating the "trans right" that country doesn't have. No explanation as to why.
For example:

Albania - No legal name change at all.

Quick look and it turns out in Albania nobody can legally change their name. Anyone can socially change their name and change it on their passport and driving licence but nobody can change their BC. So this is not a right others have and trans are denied as implied by KM it is in fact the same rule for all.

While Albania like many countries is behind on LGB support/rights it appears that the lack of rights transpeople do not have are the same rights those who are LGB are also denied yet it seems only the fact that transpeople don't have them is what matters.

The list for each country is very much the same for those countries that share a geographical location/religion/culture and so the sources linked appear to be the same dot chart I mentioned earlier.

The UK list is interesting.

No legal gender recognition without mental health diagnosis. This only applies to changing your BC and the person must have medical support to state they have/had gender dysphoria. Nobody else in the UK has the right to change their BC

No legal gender recognition without spousal consent. This is so that spouses are not forced to be in a now same sex marriage without their consent once the transperson has changed their BC. Transpeople appear to want to remove the consent of others in a legally binding contract which marriage is

No legal ban on conversion therapy. The Conversion therapy ban in the UK is made up of 3 existing Acts. Sexual offences Act 2003. Criminal justice Act 1988 and the offences against person Act 1861. This covers all physical acts and medication abuse used in order to "convert a person's sexual orientation or gender identity". What the trans movement want is affectively counselling of transpeople banned. This means no transperson could seek therapy if they have feelings of GD or confusion around their gender. That is not a right.

No legal parenthood recognition. Any male or female who parents a child has the right to be legally recognised as either their mother or father dependingon the persons sex. Legally in the UK if you are the biological or adoptive parent you are legally recognised as mother if female and father if male. That right applies to all including transpeople.

No legal right to religious marriage. In the UK no religious organisation can be compelled to marry same sex couples so this is a right LGB people do not have also so why does it only matter for transpeople?

No practical access to trans healthcare. This is just a lie. Transpeople have the same access to healthcare as anyone else in the UK. What the source linked discusses is that some transpeople when polled stated they felt prejudice from some healthcare professionals which "put them off" seeking healthcare. While this prejudice is wrong it is sadly experienced by many different people due to their culture/racce/religion/sexual orientation. Transpeople have the same RIGHT to access healthcare un the UK as anyone else

I havent gone through the whole list but looking at certain countries the rights trans people claim not to have are either the same for all trans or not, women do not have those rights either or those in the LGB community also do not have those rights. It seems to me that the trans Community do not want equal rights or rights for women or those in the wider LGB community they just want trans rights (most of which are not rights) for transpeople only and screw everyone else.

OP posts:
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TheBiologyStupid · 01/09/2022 17:19

WomaninBoots · 01/09/2022 13:43

I've skipped a few pages while hanging my laundry out to dry on the equines (who I'm sure won't roll it into the mud or shit on it at all)... I'm confused, is Clive a lion now? Will somebody please take that dog out for a walk and encourage it to play fetch or something.

Cats can play fetch too, bigot! ;o) m.youtube.com/watch?v=gsZHwPfE6Rs

Wellies54 · 01/09/2022 17:36

What rights don't trans people have? I believe the right which trans people need is to be told kindly but firmly that you cannot change your biological sex. You are perfect and beautiful as you are and you do not need to medicate or surgically alter your body to be your true self. You will not find happiness and acceptance by pretending to be something you are not. If you are not coping with life, if you feel you don't fit in, if you feel deeply unhappy with your body, you deserve the support you need to deal with this. If you are being sucked into a vortex of obsession about bodily functions you do not have, or expressing extreme hatred, or spending hours obsessing over your identity you need to be told clearly that this is not healthy and it should not be enabled. If you cannot get over this by yourself, then you should have the support you need. People who feel they are 'being kind' are only feeding a deeply unhealthy and regressive ideology. We need everyone to take responsibility for telling the truth. That is the greatest right we can give to all of society.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/09/2022 18:27

Wow, the fact he deleted all his posts is very telling.

He did on multiple occasions state that transwomen were not the same as biological women though.

Rookie error. He clearly didn't realise that is blasphemy.

TheKeatingFive · 01/09/2022 18:33

Well that was a weird little episode. Did he delete posts on other threads I wonder?

Floisme · 01/09/2022 18:35

I hope I don't sound like the thread Head Girl but, if he was worried enough to get all his posts deleted, then do we think maybe it's best if we don't talk about what was in them?

ITVlocalnews · 01/09/2022 18:36

What rights don't trans people have? I believe the right which trans people need is to be told kindly but firmly that you cannot change your biological sex.

I wish someone would tell my local news that - ITV Anglia seem to be on a roll lately - just had an item with a trans woman who called themselves a ‘transgender female’ throughout.

They actually seemed really nice and were excited about being included in a motor sports thing where sex doesn’t matter in terms of fairness or safety so no problem with that - but the female thing really jarred and I’m debating whether to complain to [email protected] or ‘be kind’ and let it slide….. I wouldn’t want to attack the person in the item, but I think the news team should be more aware of the issues around calling a trans woman a female….. or am I being ridiculous??

OldCrone · 01/09/2022 18:45

They actually seemed really nice and were excited about being included in a motor sports thing where sex doesn’t matter in terms of fairness or safety so no problem with that

No problem as long as it wasn't the women's series which was set up to help women participate in motor sport as they are underrepresented.

wseries.com/about-w-series/

TheKeatingFive · 01/09/2022 18:51

We have to stop lying about all this shit.

No, TWA not W. You can't change sex. Almost nobody 'passes'. Your body is all that you've got, it cannot by definition be 'wrong'. Your pronouns are fooling no-one.

The hurt feelings and the need to feel 'safe' are going to have to start co-existing with some basic truths. And refraining from taking away others rights to achieve their desires.

Then and only can we have conversations about how to support those who subvert societal gender norms to live as they choose. And campaign for third spaces for those who need them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/09/2022 18:55

Well that was a weird little episode. Did he delete posts on other threads I wonder?

All of them are wiped across the site, plus whole threads he started (the twee "someone cloned my cat" one and another one I saw)

IcakethereforeIam · 01/09/2022 19:06

He must have crossed a lion!

ITVlocalnews · 01/09/2022 19:07

OldCrone · 01/09/2022 18:45

They actually seemed really nice and were excited about being included in a motor sports thing where sex doesn’t matter in terms of fairness or safety so no problem with that

No problem as long as it wasn't the women's series which was set up to help women participate in motor sport as they are underrepresented.

wseries.com/about-w-series/

I think it was just a local thing, they said men and women compete together so I don’t see a problem with that, it’s lovely they are accepted and supported. The only thing that put my teeth on edge was an obviously male person with a very male voice calling themselves female just because they had long hair and pretty nails. I have neither so does that mean I’m not female?!

Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/09/2022 19:34

Floisme · 01/09/2022 18:35

I hope I don't sound like the thread Head Girl but, if he was worried enough to get all his posts deleted, then do we think maybe it's best if we don't talk about what was in them?

Makes no difference, the monitors will have screenshot everything anyway.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/09/2022 19:36

IcakethereforeIam · 01/09/2022 19:06

He must have crossed a lion!

😂😂😂

VestofAbsurdity · 01/09/2022 19:59

ITVlocalnews · 01/09/2022 18:36

What rights don't trans people have? I believe the right which trans people need is to be told kindly but firmly that you cannot change your biological sex.

I wish someone would tell my local news that - ITV Anglia seem to be on a roll lately - just had an item with a trans woman who called themselves a ‘transgender female’ throughout.

They actually seemed really nice and were excited about being included in a motor sports thing where sex doesn’t matter in terms of fairness or safety so no problem with that - but the female thing really jarred and I’m debating whether to complain to [email protected] or ‘be kind’ and let it slide….. I wouldn’t want to attack the person in the item, but I think the news team should be more aware of the issues around calling a trans woman a female….. or am I being ridiculous??

I don't think you should let it slide, letting it slide is why we have ended up where we are. No need to attack the person directly but make the point that the presenters should have corrected the person or made a correction after the segment. Males are not females and it is insulting when they say they are.

VestofAbsurdity · 01/09/2022 20:01

TheKeatingFive · 01/09/2022 18:51

We have to stop lying about all this shit.

No, TWA not W. You can't change sex. Almost nobody 'passes'. Your body is all that you've got, it cannot by definition be 'wrong'. Your pronouns are fooling no-one.

The hurt feelings and the need to feel 'safe' are going to have to start co-existing with some basic truths. And refraining from taking away others rights to achieve their desires.

Then and only can we have conversations about how to support those who subvert societal gender norms to live as they choose. And campaign for third spaces for those who need them.

This a million times over. Excellent well argued and reasoned post TheKeatingFive.

Helleofabore · 01/09/2022 20:02

ITVlocalnews · 01/09/2022 18:36

What rights don't trans people have? I believe the right which trans people need is to be told kindly but firmly that you cannot change your biological sex.

I wish someone would tell my local news that - ITV Anglia seem to be on a roll lately - just had an item with a trans woman who called themselves a ‘transgender female’ throughout.

They actually seemed really nice and were excited about being included in a motor sports thing where sex doesn’t matter in terms of fairness or safety so no problem with that - but the female thing really jarred and I’m debating whether to complain to [email protected] or ‘be kind’ and let it slide….. I wouldn’t want to attack the person in the item, but I think the news team should be more aware of the issues around calling a trans woman a female….. or am I being ridiculous??

Not to be too picky.... but sex really becomes very important in motor sport.

Not only strength and size, but also hand eye reaction time which has been proven to be faster in men than women.

ITVlocalnews · 01/09/2022 20:03

VestofAbsurdity · 01/09/2022 19:59

I don't think you should let it slide, letting it slide is why we have ended up where we are. No need to attack the person directly but make the point that the presenters should have corrected the person or made a correction after the segment. Males are not females and it is insulting when they say they are.

Thanks… I just hesitate cause I don’t want to come across as a loon!

I’m guessing media types like to see themselves as progressive and inclusive and would be a bit dismissive. They had a FtM person on the other day trying to raise money for surgery…

ITVlocalnews · 01/09/2022 20:06

You can see the item here on the West version, about 18 mins in:

www.itv.com/news/anglia/2018-05-04/catch-up-watch-the-most-recent-edition-of-itv-news-anglia

Catiette · 01/09/2022 20:09

I'm sorry our contributor received threats - that's appalling. Thanks to him for engaging so valiantly up to that point.

Reflecting on fear and threat...

I increasingly feel the lack of understanding, and sometimes empathy, that women face in arguing for single-sex spaces derives largely from the virtual impossibility of men ever fully understanding what it is to inhabit the world with a female body. It takes a real effort of will to empathise with something or someone in a way that exposes your own privilege: we're primed to empathise with people experiencing similar situations to ourselves, with whom we shared common ground.

I sometimes try to think of an analogy to get it across, but language gets in the way (again!) So, "Imagine you're a 5-year-old in a playground with a lolly the teens want and some may even try to take," may recreatee that sense of vulnerability, but infantilises the woman, falls back on the dis-tasteful(!) trope of female body as consumable, and risks demonising men - no good.

An earlier poster attempted to get it across by referring to her risk-assessments while out, which made me think of my own. The following is just the last 5 hours. On the tube: I was pressed against a man, so turned my back, placed my bag between us (better it's pick-pocketed than I'm groped) & was proportionately more tense and alert than usual til he got off... At the next station: I stood against a wall til the worst of the rush-hour crowds had passed, because, at five foot and not-very-much, I risk getting mown down (or, at best, buffetted when I assert myself). Walking home today: I kept my eyes carefully averted from the dodgy geezer bellowing to himself in the park. OK, none of these are easy situations for men, either... but the point is that I'd have felt and responded very differently indeed in each case had they involved a woman or women, as opposed to people twice as large, twice as heavy and twice as strong as me. Then, at work, early this afternoon: a male colleague used his louder and deeper voice to drown out mine in a blatant and shameless power play that left me quite angry. And, just in the last 20 minutes: the Deliveroo-style blokey rang to say he couldn't find me, & I screened his call on seeing the profile picture of a strange man, before putting two and two together and answering (feeling a bit of a prat, admittedly, there!)

Like the earlier poster tried to say, this isn't excessive. We all do it to a greater or less, and more or less conscious degree, minute-by-minute, hour-by-hour, day-by-day. And we all have the experiences to justify this level of caution - those times when we were reminded of our total, utter helplessness in the face of male desire or aggression, or felt that bolt of terror because, if he wanted to, he could, and there's nothing we could do to stop him. It INFURIATES me that I can't communicate this reality to men, especially at a time when lived experience is supposedly so key. I've been lucky in the small number and lack of severity of the bad experiences I've had, yet I still self-exclude from isolated loos without a second thought, and will feel unable to use some loos if "gender neutral" becomes commonplace, without a doubt. If I feel this way (a confident traveller, have dabbled in martial arts, am more than happy to stand up for myself with total strangers), then how must victims of genuine abuse or attack feel?! How, how can they be so disregarded?

Helleofabore · 01/09/2022 20:10

Strangely, I was not around last night because I have having a conversation with a teenager about exactly what transitioned males have in common with females that females don't have in common with other males.

After a tentative answer of sexual harassment, they could not find one commonality and asked for a week to think about it.

I also asked the teenager just what was acceptable, relevant and useful for Get the L out to have on their banners if 'Lesbians don't do penis' was so horrific, and they could not come up with anything. It was like watching the management of that think tank that Maya worked for all trying to scrabble for an answer and giving up. So, I am waiting for a week for that answer too.

Maybe the young teenager will come up with answer that Trying found so very elusive (while claiming to have come up with a very clever answer indeed! Which wasn't clever at all and had more holes in than a sieve). I am hoping the teenager will at least be more honest and admit they don't actually know and are just repeating tired old trope from extreme trans activists. Something that I found really hypocritical because Trying absolutely was spouting tired old trope from the very activists he told us he did not agree with....

bellinisurge · 01/09/2022 20:13

What did I miss? Did we work out what rights TW don't have?

Helleofabore · 01/09/2022 20:15

Hardly bellini. We got stuck on a man redefining women and telling us what women have in common with transitioned males.

Helleofabore · 01/09/2022 20:21

Catiette · 31/08/2022 22:27

As a long-time lurker, I've found this thread fascinating.

I've been wary of posting here for some of the reasons Trying expresses: I agree with much of what I read, but am sometimes unsettled by the content or tone of a post. But I can also see why posters are frustrated by Trying, as he seems to focus on debating the character of the debate at the expense of the central issues, and this sometimes feels like avoidance. Extremism, acceptance, threat... all these are becoming untethered from concrete examples that may help further shared understanding, and this is shifting the thread into unhelpful hyperbole ('hate' and 'all women' etc.).

Trying, could you answer some of the more specific questions posters have asked? You're engaging so much more fully than many others seem to, and I think some people are genuinely interested in more concrete examples of your thinking. I have a particular question that's troubling me, as a possible starting point, and it drills right down into such specifics and this central issue of language and meaning. It seems rather arbitrary, but...

Earlier in the thread, you quoted the use of 'experiment' as potentially offensive, and supported the meaning of 'lesbian' being expanded to include transwomen. Both of these advocate adapting language to mitigate transpeople's distress. And, I believe, this is often reasonable - I've used individuals' preferred pronouns. Yet I see an inconsistency in these particular examples that's been troubling me...

To me, the use of 'experiment' in the context you quoted was brutally direct, yes, and somewhat sarcastic, agreed. There are instances when a euphemism would be kinder, and I'd have felt more comfortable were it not used in the way it was, although I also understand the choice to use it. Fundamentally, though, it was a rhetorical point, made in a niche chatroom.

In contrast, the redefinition of 'lesbian' of recent years actively removes a marginalised group's ability to name themselves, absorbs this group into a new, different political entity, and has been reported (by the BBC, no less) to be increasing this group's members' exposure to unsafe situations.

I really do see a contradiction here. The use of 'experiment' may be offensive, even to the point of 'making transpeople feel unsafe', as the phrase goes... but the redefinition of lesbian is making women less safe, in a quite literal, physical sense, by opening up their dating pool to stronger, male-bodied people who may well not declare their trans status before meeting.

How can these views be reconciled, and our use of language negotiated in a way that maximises clarity and acknowledges all parties (both a genuine question, if you can answer, and also, perhaps a rhetorical expression of my own confusion!)

Catiette

I am not sure why you have felt you have felt that you shouldn't post. Obviously some people will have different ways of expressing their thoughts and on this board, yes, some people are blunter than others.

I hope that you stick around. Even if you disagree sometimes/many times (it is never healthy to always agree with any group communication) as I think you have a degree of understanding that posters such as Taking simply did not have, but worse than that, could not acknowledge that they had no understanding of.

Thanks for delurking.

ANewCreation · 01/09/2022 20:21

My mind has been going like yours, Catiette

Imagine, Men, you lived in a world where there were no women at all but instead there was another entire sex class of people who were almost without exception more powerful, more privileged, stronger, taller, faster, more violent than men.

Let's call them Giants.

For centuries the Giants had dominated the earth. Their systems, their ways, their ideas - all designed to put the needs of the Giants first. Their privileges gave them access to the top jobs, to political power, to education.

Occasionally, an exceptional man might be able to rise to something like the top but it was unusual and fraught with challenges and dangers and many Giants were not really convinced that men were fully human in the way they were...

Among the 6,500 differences between your body type and theirs it was obvious that physically the Giants were so much stronger than men.
They had on average 40% more upper-body strength and 33% more lower body strength, so if you ever physically struggled or tried to fight with them you were almost guaranteed to lose.
As they were between 10-20% faster than you, if you tried to run away they could pretty much catch you every time.

Above all, they were so very much more physically violent. Just 5% of the prison population in the land were men, 95% were the giants, 88% of them in prison for a violent crime.

99% of the sex attacks in your land were carried out by the Giants and, due to their biology, the Giants could impregnate men but men could never impregnate the giants.

In trying to avoid them, men frequently imposed a kind of curfew on themselves. Men wouldn't ever feel totally relaxed going out alone, in a deserted place particularly after dark or where the Giants were drinking after all you had grown up being told that the giants were especially dangerous then.

Since you were young, maybe even only 5 or 6 years old, you had experienced predatory behaviour from Giants (and, over the years none or almost none from your fellow men) so you instinctively trusted men more.

As you walked down the street at night, knowing that a Giant was walking close behind you, your heart would pound, you might clutch your keys in your hand to use as a weapon, knowing that it was probably futile, trying to remember your self defence lessons, looking for escape routes, safe spaces to go to, checking over your shoulder before you entered your front door. 9 times out of 10 it would amount to nothing but the fear was always there.

And sometimes the fear paid off and kept you alive and your safety depended on always recognising Giants.

Having said all this, many of the Giants were charming and delightful and kind and good - it was just not immediately obvious from looking at them which ones were and which weren't...

Despite all of the above, (and somewhat inconveniently!) the vast majority of men were sexually attracted to the Giants and vice versa, with only a small group of men just attracted to other men and sexually repulsed by Giants.

In this land, there were a few safe places just for men away from the Giants, places where you might be more vulnerable or in a state of undress, separate places for your dignity, privacy and, especially, safety. Many of these were hard fought for and protected to some extent in law but mainly relied on a social contract where the Giants would just keep out.

Men could police their own spaces to some extent, so if a Giant came in by accident or design, they could band together and ask him to leave/appeal to authority, enlist the help of a passing Giant etc

These spaces provided a refuge from the very real threat of Giant violence (as well as a welcome break from the Giant gaze, toxic Giant-inity, Giantsplaining, Giant privilege etc) for old or vulnerable men, religious men, traumatised men, men who only fancied other men as well as any man who wanted to not have to engage with Giants for a bit.

And then one fateful day, the Giants came up with a plan that would work for their unhappy fellow Giants...

OldCrone · 01/09/2022 20:26

Helleofabore · 01/09/2022 20:15

Hardly bellini. We got stuck on a man redefining women and telling us what women have in common with transitioned males.

The argument was: men are privileged. Men who identify as transwomen are less privileged because they're trans. Women are less privileged because they're not men. Therefore women are just like transwomen because they have the same disadvantage compared to men.

What he didn't explain was how women who identify as men fit into this system. Like women they lack privilege because they're not men. Like men who identify as transwomen they lack privilege because they're trans. So they are doubly disadvantaged.

So he seems to have proved that women who identify as transmen are even less like men than either women or those men who identify as transwomen. He didn't manage to explain this conundrum before he fled.