What rights don't transpeople have?

[CrossStichQueen]

It's a question I have seen asked many times and it is rarely answered. When it is its usually a list of things that are not "rights" or a list of rights/demands not held by anyone else.

It appears Katie M has provided a list of Countries with each trans right they don't provide. KM has also provided source links however many just link to a chart with dots indicating the "trans right" that country doesn't have. No explanation as to why.
For example:

Albania - No legal name change at all.

Quick look and it turns out in Albania nobody can legally change their name. Anyone can socially change their name and change it on their passport and driving licence but nobody can change their BC. So this is not a right others have and trans are denied as implied by KM it is in fact the same rule for all.

While Albania like many countries is behind on LGB support/rights it appears that the lack of rights transpeople do not have are the same rights those who are LGB are also denied yet it seems only the fact that transpeople don't have them is what matters.

The list for each country is very much the same for those countries that share a geographical location/religion/culture and so the sources linked appear to be the same dot chart I mentioned earlier.

The UK list is interesting.

No legal gender recognition without mental health diagnosis. This only applies to changing your BC and the person must have medical support to state they have/had gender dysphoria. Nobody else in the UK has the right to change their BC

No legal gender recognition without spousal consent. This is so that spouses are not forced to be in a now same sex marriage without their consent once the transperson has changed their BC. Transpeople appear to want to remove the consent of others in a legally binding contract which marriage is

No legal ban on conversion therapy. The Conversion therapy ban in the UK is made up of 3 existing Acts. Sexual offences Act 2003. Criminal justice Act 1988 and the offences against person Act 1861. This covers all physical acts and medication abuse used in order to "convert a person's sexual orientation or gender identity". What the trans movement want is affectively counselling of transpeople banned. This means no transperson could seek therapy if they have feelings of GD or confusion around their gender. That is not a right.

No legal parenthood recognition. Any male or female who parents a child has the right to be legally recognised as either their mother or father dependingon the persons sex. Legally in the UK if you are the biological or adoptive parent you are legally recognised as mother if female and father if male. That right applies to all including transpeople.

No legal right to religious marriage. In the UK no religious organisation can be compelled to marry same sex couples so this is a right LGB people do not have also so why does it only matter for transpeople?

No practical access to trans healthcare. This is just a lie. Transpeople have the same access to healthcare as anyone else in the UK. What the source linked discusses is that some transpeople when polled stated they felt prejudice from some healthcare professionals which "put them off" seeking healthcare. While this prejudice is wrong it is sadly experienced by many different people due to their culture/racce/religion/sexual orientation. Transpeople have the same RIGHT to access healthcare un the UK as anyone else

I havent gone through the whole list but looking at certain countries the rights trans people claim not to have are either the same for all trans or not, women do not have those rights either or those in the LGB community also do not have those rights. It seems to me that the trans Community do not want equal rights or rights for women or those in the wider LGB community they just want trans rights (most of which are not rights) for transpeople only and screw everyone else.

Most of the middle grounders just live a happy life, co-existing and not hurting anyone. Go figure.

That hasn't been an option for women who require single sex spaces, though has it?

Trying

I am sorry you feel unable to post once you realised this thread was in FWR but it is interesting that you commented on a right you believe transpeople should have without realising it is a right everyone should have and not unique to transpeople.

And I repeat, what legal rights suddenly disappear the day you announce you're trans? There are none. It's the same for everyone.

The problem is TRAs conflate legal rights with 'I should be able to do/have this because I want it and I want to force people to say they think I have actually changed sex'. There is no issue with the middle ground or the reasonable trans people (lots of regulars on twitter) who support women and know and accept that they are still male post transition.

Trying
"Every religion wants to be able to just live their life without having hate and judgement - most of the time they do. It’s always the “extremists” at either end that are battling. Most of the middle grounders just live a happy life, co-existing and not hurting anyone. Go figure."

The different religions didn't demand to use the spaces used by other religions, they set up their own groups and places of worship etc. I promise you that if the churches had been made to budge up, remove all images and mentions of Christ and let other beliefs use their spaces - it wouldn't be nearly as peaceful.

Maybe we could learn from that?

feminist 'extreme' position - we want single sex spaces. That's it.

We need to get to a point where woman (adult human females) are respected again.

Get to that point and then we can work to get a solution that works well for all.

'I should be able to do/have this because I want it and I want to force people to say they think I have actually changed sex'.

Or 'to say they think I have no sex'. Or myriad other things - trans doesn't just mean 'opposite sex' - it's also non-binary, agender, etc - it's a mishmash of things.

The Helen S tweet above is spot on.

I cannot understand why people are focussing so much time and energy in pitching trans rights as an attack on women’s rights. Protecting the rights of everybody to live their own lives in a society which promotes tolerance and guards their right to do so protects ALL of us. This focus on opposing trans as being anti feminist just promotes hatred and intolerance and in my view is a huge backward step.

We take so much for granted but the right wing is gaining ground across the world and the rights we take for granted (and were so recently and hard won) are under threat.

Homosexuality was a criminal offence in the UK until 55 years ago. The age of consent was not brought into line with heterosexuals until 2001.

Between 1988 and 2003, Section 28 prohibited “the promotion of homosexuality” by local authorities (so by extension, by schools and social care). That legislation specifically prohibited teachers from doing anything to “promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship.”

Same sex marriage was not legalised in England, Wales and Scotland until 2014 and in Northern Ireland until 2020.

The Supreme Court has already started it’s attack on women’s rights by overturning Roe V Wade. They have made no secret of their intention to start on gay and contraception rights next:

www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/06/24/roe-v-wade-supreme-court-justice-thomas-says-gay-rights-rulings-open-to-be-tossed.html

Trans rights have been turned into a way of whipping up hatred and intolerance by those people who want to go further to remove the rights of anyone they regard as “other” - and make no mistake, that includes women. I read the media coverage of protests in this country against drag queens reading stories in libraries with horror - so much hatred, bigotry and intolerance about something so wondeful.

I want to live in a world where my children are taught homosexuality is normal in school, they can go to the library and hear a drag Queen read a story if they want to and they know if they are gay, straight, trans or whatever they will not be persecuted and will have the right to live happily in a tolerant society.

Which is what almost everyone wants to do - just live their lives without judgment.

This sort of post really pisses me off because it is bigotry dressed up as a “legal argument”. Flame me if you want to but I honestly think mumsnet should be ashamed that it has become an outlet for such open anti-trans intolerance and hatred.

I cannot understand why people are focussing so much time and energy in pitching trans rights as an attack on women’s rights.

Because people are pitching women's rights as an attack on trans rights.

Barny Nobody is pitching on this thread.

What trans rights do transpeople not already have?

I cannot understand why people are focussing so much time and energy in pitching trans rights as an attack on women’s rights

But what else is it?

When women no longer have access to single sex spaces (for example as rape/abuse victims) as a result?

Or can't swim or exercise any more because of their need of single sex spaces due to religious beliefs?

Or have their safety and opportunities in sports compromised as a result?

Very interest in your response to these questions. Do you just see woman's rights as necessary collateral damage here? That they should shut up about? Or what?

Which is what almost everyone wants to do - just live their lives without judgment

Where is the judgement for Transpeople who respect sex based rights? I certainly have none.

archive.ph/5jtbR

for posterity! 🥂

women didn’t start this @Barnybrown

everytime we tried to have a discussion about e.g. whether it was fair to allow fully grown men to play sport against women & girls because they now identified as women or whether it was safe to allow fully intact men into women a prisons because they identified as women all we got was “no debate/TWAW/fuck off bigot/die in a grease fire

we wanted to find a compromise but that was denied so now we’re not up for compromising

so what do you think? You think it’s ok for 54 year old men to play rugby on a woman’s team? How about rape survivors being denied a single sex space to discuss their trauma? You all good with that too?

I'm not sure it's a concrete right but Trans folk can get married in a Church.

The C.o.E. inexplicably will marry a TW to a male or a TM to a female and refuse a same sex couple. But only if the vicar is willing to perform the ceremony. Find a willing vicar and they have one over gay couples - which I find incredible.

But other Christian denominations already perform same sex weddings, not sure who but I think the Quakers are amongst them, so you would think all would be ok there.

The Catholics are a hard no which is no surprise and there is a lot of restriction there for everyone anyway. Not sure about other religions.

We can find a way through this without it being one or the other - by showing mutual respect and trying to find solutions without demonising people and demanding that one set of rights should triumph over the other.

You are being distracted from the real threat - and while you are directing all your anger and hatred towards a very small minority of people in our society , the governments of the world are unpicking the fundamental rights of women and other minority groups. And they are only just getting started.

We need to stand together - not get distracted into hating each other because that is exactly what the far right wants !

It is also unhelpful to exaggerate - to say women “can't swim or exercise any more because of their need of single sex spaces due to religious beliefs” is patently a ridiculous exaggeration. But to answer the specific question - no I don’t “just see woman's rights as necessary collateral damage here” - I think there are many situations in life where people’s wishes and needs conflict, and we need to work together on respectful compromise.

Barny it is fact that for many reasons women need single SEX spaces. Do you believe that males should have access and women cannot say no?

Barny you are where many many of us used to be. we thought if we were reasonable and said things in the right way, compromise would be possible

it isn’t

once a man is in a single sex space it is by definition no longer single sex and a number of TW have made it very clear that their male entitlement over rides what women want and indeed are legally entitled too

I also see you haven’t answered the specific questions you were asked

We can find a way through this without it being one or the other - by showing mutual respect and trying to find solutions without demonising people and demanding that one set of rights should triumph over the other.

What do you suggest then? How do you accommodate womens need for single sex spaces and TW's desire to access those spaces? How should that work?

It is also unhelpful to exaggerate - to say women “can't swim or exercise any more because of their need of single sex spaces due to religious beliefs” is patently a ridiculous exaggeration.

Its not. It is absolutely true of devout Jewish / Muslim women. What is your answer for them? They don't matter?

This focus on opposing trans as being anti feminist just promotes hatred and intolerance and in my view is a huge backward step.

Trans is based around the idea that a man can 'live as a woman' by performing regressive stereotypes which feminists have spent decades trying to escape. How can anyone consider this to be anything but anti-feminist?

I am going to bow out of this thread now because these responses will no doubt continue in the same vein.

I think mumsnet has somehow managed to attract a particularly vocal anti trans voice and has become an echo chamber which is just as bad as the extremist trans writers you are quoting. Polarising extremism will not get us anywhere.

I just wanted to make it clear that when you claim to speak for “women” , you do not speak for me.

I am going to bow out of this thread now because these responses will no doubt continue in the same vein.

It really is a shame you won't try to engage with these points.

But perhaps you will in time. here's hoping.

I just wanted to make it clear that when you claim to speak for “women” , you do not speak for me.

Well you don't speak for women at all. The nerve of you to dismiss the very real situation of the many women who will be excluded from their own single sex spaces because of people like you going along with this ideology.

“Bowing out” lol why am I not remotely surprised 🙄

It is also unhelpful to exaggerate - to say women “can't swim or exercise any more because of their need of single sex spaces due to religious beliefs” is patently a ridiculous exaggeration

is it?
my LA have about 10 leisure centres, but only one has a specific, women only room. This is allowed under current law as it’s a proportionate response to a legitimate aim (women of minority orthodox religions who are forbidden from using mixed sex facilities either through the tenants of their faith or by their patriarchal community need to have their exercise for health needs met).

one MTF transitioner accessing that room (the only single sex gym facility in the whole borough) would mean the majority of the women using it would now have nowhere to go at all, and would instead be restricted to whatever they can do at home (where a lack of space, childcare and eldercare responsibilities could feasibly make any meaningful physical activity near impossible).

do you really believe that one MTF transitioning person should have priority over all the women that the facility was set up for?

because if the use of that women only room were to significantly drop off the facility would simply be taken away in the next restructure (and the council would have to find a different strategy to meet the health and exercise needs of the now-isolated women).

like, I prefer the women only room because no man-splaining in the weights area or clumsy unwanted flirting, but if it were to be taken away I could still exercise in the mixed sex space. That other women would no longer be able to use the gym outrages me (and while I personally believe religion and the patriarchy is bollox, we aren’t going to dismantle that any time soon (if ever) so work arounds will have to be made).