What rights don't transpeople have?

[CrossStichQueen]

It's a question I have seen asked many times and it is rarely answered. When it is its usually a list of things that are not "rights" or a list of rights/demands not held by anyone else.

It appears Katie M has provided a list of Countries with each trans right they don't provide. KM has also provided source links however many just link to a chart with dots indicating the "trans right" that country doesn't have. No explanation as to why.
For example:

Albania - No legal name change at all.

Quick look and it turns out in Albania nobody can legally change their name. Anyone can socially change their name and change it on their passport and driving licence but nobody can change their BC. So this is not a right others have and trans are denied as implied by KM it is in fact the same rule for all.

While Albania like many countries is behind on LGB support/rights it appears that the lack of rights transpeople do not have are the same rights those who are LGB are also denied yet it seems only the fact that transpeople don't have them is what matters.

The list for each country is very much the same for those countries that share a geographical location/religion/culture and so the sources linked appear to be the same dot chart I mentioned earlier.

The UK list is interesting.

No legal gender recognition without mental health diagnosis. This only applies to changing your BC and the person must have medical support to state they have/had gender dysphoria. Nobody else in the UK has the right to change their BC

No legal gender recognition without spousal consent. This is so that spouses are not forced to be in a now same sex marriage without their consent once the transperson has changed their BC. Transpeople appear to want to remove the consent of others in a legally binding contract which marriage is

No legal ban on conversion therapy. The Conversion therapy ban in the UK is made up of 3 existing Acts. Sexual offences Act 2003. Criminal justice Act 1988 and the offences against person Act 1861. This covers all physical acts and medication abuse used in order to "convert a person's sexual orientation or gender identity". What the trans movement want is affectively counselling of transpeople banned. This means no transperson could seek therapy if they have feelings of GD or confusion around their gender. That is not a right.

No legal parenthood recognition. Any male or female who parents a child has the right to be legally recognised as either their mother or father dependingon the persons sex. Legally in the UK if you are the biological or adoptive parent you are legally recognised as mother if female and father if male. That right applies to all including transpeople.

No legal right to religious marriage. In the UK no religious organisation can be compelled to marry same sex couples so this is a right LGB people do not have also so why does it only matter for transpeople?

No practical access to trans healthcare. This is just a lie. Transpeople have the same access to healthcare as anyone else in the UK. What the source linked discusses is that some transpeople when polled stated they felt prejudice from some healthcare professionals which "put them off" seeking healthcare. While this prejudice is wrong it is sadly experienced by many different people due to their culture/racce/religion/sexual orientation. Transpeople have the same RIGHT to access healthcare un the UK as anyone else

I havent gone through the whole list but looking at certain countries the rights trans people claim not to have are either the same for all trans or not, women do not have those rights either or those in the LGB community also do not have those rights. It seems to me that the trans Community do not want equal rights or rights for women or those in the wider LGB community they just want trans rights (most of which are not rights) for transpeople only and screw everyone else.

And what you are suggesting here re rape crisis centres are some of the reasonable solutions already suggested for over a decade.

And have been constantly rejected.

And women now have to put the effort in to recreate new crisis centres specifically for females who want a single sex support group, and female only shelters.

That is the point many posters are making @Trying20 , your own suggestions have been rejected as extreme by others. Of course, we know they are not, but the policy makers have now decided they are extreme positions.

I disagree though that it is up to females to make sure trans people are supported in rape crisis centres. That is what lobby groups with funding should be doing, and should have from the start.

Now, please do the same explanation for protection of female prisoners, and female sports.

Because potentially you will see you are accusing women of being at the ‘extreme’ end of the argument but your own position may well reflect a very similar position. You are declaring it ‘middle ground’ because you seem to not be able to engage.

Maybe due to ‘tone’ rather than substance.

Actually, the position constantly held by most people on these boards is not an extreme one, but very central.

An extreme stance would be a total ban on gender affirming care such as surgery or hormones, but no one wants that. We just want it to be properly informed.

An extreme stance would be prejudice and harassment of any trans woman changing her name and wearing what she wants, perhaps suggesting that she should not be working with children (as gay teachers were once discriminated against), but none of us want that, we just want safeguarding protocols observed. Trans people are well supported by the law, the extreme position would be campaigning to remove those protections, but no one is.

An extreme stance would be banning men from wearing certain clothes in public, or at least allowing harassment of them for doing so. What about representation of trans people in films, television, media? An extreme position would show them as weak, stupid, pathetic, but trans representation in media is incredibly positive - in fact, to the point of being disengenious.

Getting back to the OP. I agree with those who have commented that Montgomery tries to present themselves as ‘reasonable’, but it is always what Montgomery wants and never any other solution.

And Montgomery is all about building Montgomery’s profile. If Montgomery ever actually wrote any tweet or post or vid that was reasonable, then Montgomery would quickly lose their influencer status. And that is what Montgomery thrives on.

They are so heavily invested in this discussion and I don’t believe it is possible for them to have any ‘good faith’ takes on this.

You only have to look at their past treatment of Helen Staniland and the sexual harassment that crosses into to see their true nature. And Montgomery really don’t seem to be clever enough to not rely on the most popular line of narrative.

This happens constantly - for instance TRAs screaming "DON'T READ JK ROWLING'S ESSAY, I BEG YOU DON'T!"

The whole world has not denied a compromise. Has anyone actually denied a compromise apart from a small group of extremists (of the opposing view to you)?

Yes. What do you think the political position has been until a couple of years ago? As pp said you are not very well informed.

@Trying20 I can see where you are coming from, but if you engage in critical thinking about this issue the result is that your 'extreme' is basically a 'hard no' and a call for logical thinking.

We're also arguing for things that are hardly extreme at all, single sex spaces have never been seen at over the top. If males posed no problems to women, why on earth do those spaces exist?

If women weren't discussing these things passionately somewhere on the internet none of these grassroot groups would exist which are working hard to protect your rights, and we need a counterpart to TRA activism. If we all behaved in the mild but more palatable 'be kind' way, we'd be sleepwalking into a lot of problems which countries like Canada and the US are now realising.

To pick an example earlier in the thread? Do I think that people born male, who now identify as female, should be allowed, without restriction, to attend a female rape crisis centre? No. Of course not.

Firstly, this is the position of many on this board, which you have previously characterised as extreme.

Secondly, there is a highly vocal component of TRAs who do think that. And would be calling you a transphobe and a bigot for what you've just said. Because TWAW and No debate. So how do you think these people, who are vocal on SM and influential in policy making, should be answered and responded to?

And how is it possible to engage with the more moderate trans community who have been drowned out and intimidated by those demanding unfettered access to women's spaces with 'no debate'?

And yet you are characterising the MN as the extreme ones in this debate?

I'd also be interested in your thoughts on whether TW should have unfettered access to women's sports, shelters, etc.

@Trying20
We tried all that - years ago, we tried supporting and encouraging trans people to make their own specialist services and spaces. For more than one reason - in that Transpeople have mental health concerns and physical health concerns that need specialist support.

Guess what happened?
Women got rape and death threats for saying that men aren't women.

Your responses would be seen as transphobic by TRAs who want to remove the societal boundaries that protect women and children.

To me, starting a discussion of "what rights don't trans people have?" is not helpful. You might as well say "what more do they want?".

Did you read the OP and the Twitter thread it was specifically discussing? (That's not a rhetorical question - I'm interested in the context to your comments, trying, although I have no expectation of a straightforward answer! ).

It was about a TW listing the rights that trans people don't have, and querying if the claims were accurate.

I believe you have misunderstood the context in your haste to tell us how wrong we are.

The wider context is, to me, summed up in Helen S's tweet "Transactivism - a movement that fails to state what rights it's fighting for on the grounds that it may incriminate itself."

Asking for clarity is not "unhelpful" in my opinion, but those who seek to deceive often avoid things like definitions and unambiguity. They are not interested in discussion in good faith where both sides seek to establish genuine understanding of their views.

I understand that there are situations in which this may cause problems for women - and in particular around changing facilities, toilets or other spaces that are traditionally single sex.
I fully understand that some women might feel uncomfortable, or unsafe, or undignified in a situation where they're forced to use these facilities alongside trans people

If you understand the concept of risk, you will know that the "problems" you mention are increased incidences of sexual assault. This has happened; it's been documented. To not acknowledge this and move on to focus on whether feelings are hurt is the problem in a nutshell.

A LGBT rights campaigner asked for a female doctor and had NHS staff writing about her to raise concerns about her transphobia. Google Clare Dimyon. This is the "extreme" position we are threatened for upholding.

More importantly, the posts ignore that organisations setting policy, issuing guidance around laws have been ignoring those ‘reasonable’ suggestions and requests.

Maybe instead of calling women extremists, posters could do just a bit more research and try to understand the full and historic background.

Doing a quick Google search is not even touching the surface of the widely connected impacts of years of lobbying across all aspects of life that impacts females.

Do another explanation on prisons, and then sports. Then on health, schools, on political parties and ‘women’s officers’, on media guidelines, on girl guides policy around accommodations etc.

Look at the actual impact, not just at the top line policies. Look at how those interact with the needs of females of any age.

Continually talking about ‘extremists’ is actually very ignorant when you start to understand that the extremists have already instigated the policy changes and women are now having to fund court cases, or campaigning to get the reasonable suggestions back on the table to discuss even.

This was your first comment, trying, and my response.

I suppose that answers the question of why all these male transpeople who identify as 'lesbians' don't just date each other. They're all transphobic.

Is this satire? It must be. The final point is the release of all trans prisoners.

Don't forget that they are also the most marginalised group in society.

When I checked what 'marginalised' actually means in terms of society it means and found things like 'to place in a position of minor or marginal importance, significance, relevance, or effect; relegate to the fringes; to keep powerless' etc etc.
It's a shame there couldn't be some kind of lobbying group that could have an influence on government, national institutions and businesses, and run inclusion programs to raise the profile and visibility of trans people.

The final point is the release of all trans prisoners.

Not satire.

And that 'anti-carceral' movement is also not satire. S.Faye wrote in their book about this and it is not unusual to see it discussed amongst the extremist activists.

@Trying20
J K Rowling has been vilified by the media simply for stating that trans women are not the same as natal women.

A fact you agree with from reading your posts. You clearly recognise women and trans women have different needs. This makes you the dreaded T slur by these standards, and essentially in agreement with the majority of the feminism board. It is only recently that it has been recognised that this is not an extremist position.

If women in the feminist boards are a little angry it's perfectly understandable given the gaslighting. They've been told they're transphobic, crazy, extremist simply for stating something that science supports and is blatantly obvious to anyone. For simply daring to question the narrative the media went with. Nothing and no one should be beyond scrutiny.

I personally don't have a problem sharing facilities with a genuine trans women with genuine gender dysphoria. However, we can't let them know without letting in men who simply claim to be women for access to women's spaces (to get to vulnerable women or simply for arousal). The only way we can let them in and not the other is for them to have a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria and for people to be allowed to question them and ask for evidence of it. I believe this would be the middle ground. However we live in society where people can't be asked to prove anything (which I don't agree with - lots of people lie about many things). You can't ask if someone has a genuine exemption for a mask during COVID for example. When this is the case, I'm sorry but, no males can come in.

It's not just about TW who want to abuse the system either. I have an acquaintance who was violently raped and now struggles with men's presence generally.

Any male body, no matter how genuine/well meaning would trigger her in a space where she's vulnerable (changing/toileting/therapy). I believe her needs matter too.

It's an inconvenient truth, but no one can change sex. A male body will always be a male body and denying this or pretending it doesn't matter is not helpful in trying to accommodate all these needs. It's dishonest.

They've been told they're transphobic, crazy, extremist simply for stating something that science supports and is blatantly obvious to anyone. For simply daring to question the narrative the media went with.

Usually from posters on MN from other board. Who apply the same, 'be kind' vibe as one who suggests 'reasonable' alternatives without the knowledge that we have all been there and made those suggestions. Fuck! I remember listening to presentations to the Women's committee in parliament... and they were ignored and were replied with 'that is an extremist' view and is 'a minority'.

Well. The world has moved on now. There have been YouGov polls that have shut the MN posters who kept on with the 'you are the minority' up. Because it was shown that an independent pollster came up with the same results as all the MN polls, all the twitter polls, all the Times polls. That the majority of people, and indeed the majority of women, don't want their boundaries lowered to allow males access to single sex spaces and sports.

It is sad though, that rather than learning from being questioned, even robustly, posters like @Trying20 will simply declare that they know better, that they know that a reasonable solution can be found, when they actually don't know at all.

Actually I think Trying has attempted to engage with the debate more than most in her position. Hopefully this thread has given her plenty to think about.

It's slightly odd the police are bending over backwards trying to make friends with a movement that repeatedly says 'ACAB' and bangs on about banning prisons.

www.tiktok.com/@jaydeuk/video/7126305279653809413

reduxx.info/uk-trans-tiktoker-revealed-as-registered-sex-offender/

Trying, I think if you click 'hide thread' it'll stop giving you notifications.