What rights don't transpeople have?

[CrossStichQueen]

It's a question I have seen asked many times and it is rarely answered. When it is its usually a list of things that are not "rights" or a list of rights/demands not held by anyone else.

It appears Katie M has provided a list of Countries with each trans right they don't provide. KM has also provided source links however many just link to a chart with dots indicating the "trans right" that country doesn't have. No explanation as to why.
For example:

Albania - No legal name change at all.

Quick look and it turns out in Albania nobody can legally change their name. Anyone can socially change their name and change it on their passport and driving licence but nobody can change their BC. So this is not a right others have and trans are denied as implied by KM it is in fact the same rule for all.

While Albania like many countries is behind on LGB support/rights it appears that the lack of rights transpeople do not have are the same rights those who are LGB are also denied yet it seems only the fact that transpeople don't have them is what matters.

The list for each country is very much the same for those countries that share a geographical location/religion/culture and so the sources linked appear to be the same dot chart I mentioned earlier.

The UK list is interesting.

No legal gender recognition without mental health diagnosis. This only applies to changing your BC and the person must have medical support to state they have/had gender dysphoria. Nobody else in the UK has the right to change their BC

No legal gender recognition without spousal consent. This is so that spouses are not forced to be in a now same sex marriage without their consent once the transperson has changed their BC. Transpeople appear to want to remove the consent of others in a legally binding contract which marriage is

No legal ban on conversion therapy. The Conversion therapy ban in the UK is made up of 3 existing Acts. Sexual offences Act 2003. Criminal justice Act 1988 and the offences against person Act 1861. This covers all physical acts and medication abuse used in order to "convert a person's sexual orientation or gender identity". What the trans movement want is affectively counselling of transpeople banned. This means no transperson could seek therapy if they have feelings of GD or confusion around their gender. That is not a right.

No legal parenthood recognition. Any male or female who parents a child has the right to be legally recognised as either their mother or father dependingon the persons sex. Legally in the UK if you are the biological or adoptive parent you are legally recognised as mother if female and father if male. That right applies to all including transpeople.

No legal right to religious marriage. In the UK no religious organisation can be compelled to marry same sex couples so this is a right LGB people do not have also so why does it only matter for transpeople?

No practical access to trans healthcare. This is just a lie. Transpeople have the same access to healthcare as anyone else in the UK. What the source linked discusses is that some transpeople when polled stated they felt prejudice from some healthcare professionals which "put them off" seeking healthcare. While this prejudice is wrong it is sadly experienced by many different people due to their culture/racce/religion/sexual orientation. Transpeople have the same RIGHT to access healthcare un the UK as anyone else

I havent gone through the whole list but looking at certain countries the rights trans people claim not to have are either the same for all trans or not, women do not have those rights either or those in the LGB community also do not have those rights. It seems to me that the trans Community do not want equal rights or rights for women or those in the wider LGB community they just want trans rights (most of which are not rights) for transpeople only and screw everyone else.

I just wanted to make it clear that when you claim to speak for “women” , you do not speak for me

obviously not… because consent isn’t decided by consensus.
Every woman has a right to a total veto when it comes to her own privacy and dignity.

I have almost no dignity and am prone to oversharing but I wouldn’t expect any other woman to move her boundaries based on my own low standards.

Privacy, dignity and adequate safeguarding for ALL should be the standard and then if some of us want to give up our own portion that’s our look out, but we can’t consent to that on behalf of other women. That would be shitty of us.

I have some sympathy for Barnybrown. I've been there. I came on here calling people transphobes and accusing them of exaggeration too.

But then I began to see how this conflation of sex and gender impacts women on the ground.

One thing I would say, I wish women would reflect on why they are prioritising the desires of natal men over the needs of vulnerable women. Unpicking that is a good place to start.

Maybe before bowing out, Barnybrown could stop and have a look at IAmSarah's threads.

Do you speak for Sarah, Barny? What "respectful compromise" are you going to suggest for her?

I think women like barnybrown come from a place of great privilege if they have no reason to fear male bodies in their spaces.

It is important to acknowledge that and think about the women who don't have that privilege. And refrain from speaking on their behalf or offering up their rights to those spaces.

We can find a way through this without it being one or the other - by showing mutual respect and trying to find solutions without demonising people and demanding that one set of rights should triumph over the other.

That would be lovely. And I'm willing to bet that most of the trans people with crippling gender dysphoria would agree, and have tried to live that way. Unfortunately the trans ideologues, TRAs and MRAs have destroyed the delicate balance that previously existed. We don't see any mutual respect from them. We don't see any attempt from them to find solutions, only rejections of any of our attempts. All we see from them is demonising people and demanding that one set of rights should triumph over the other.

It's not just women who suffer the consequences, but all vulnerable people - including those with severe gender dysphoria.

That's my brain blown for the rest of the week.

'Batshit' hardly begins to cover it.

'Batshit' hardly begins to cover it.

It's very much 'just when you thought you couldn't be surprised by anything thrown at you'

BAM, along comes this little gem.

by showing mutual respect and trying to find solutions without demonising people
Sadly 'no debate' and the yells of 'bigot!' have rather put the mockers on that.

I assume that you noted which way the demonising tends to go on, say, Twitter?

So women, if we don't want to share facilities, then we need to stay at home. That's what our rights should be, according to some.

Some, here, includes KM. And no, KM makes no exception for religious beliefs.

The 'manifesto' above dates, I believe, from the time when a transwoman called Ada Wells was making a lot of noise in gender ideology circles in Edinburgh and attacking the late great Magdalen Berns, amongst others. See linked article by Magdalen's partner Nicole. Ada was apparently a good chum of Jess Bradley (suspended from NUS over allegations of flashing at work and posting selfies of said flashing online). See also the very disturbing stuff collated by ForWomenScot on Twitter (whole thread on second link below). Action on Trans Health have advised the government and the NHS was signposting to them.

satiricole.medium.com/a-culture-of-fear-universities-and-the-division-of-lgb-youth-bb6b6032a70f

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1542883706234363904.html

So, while the 'manifesto' is ludicrous, unfortunately the great minds behind it inexplicably have the sort of access to policymakers us believers in reality and biology can only dream of.

Hi Barny,

What rights of women are you talking about? Right to women oriented healthcare? Gone, because our healthcare is now based on our sex organs.
Right to dignity and respect? Gone, because I get to chose between sharing changing rooms and toilets with male people or stay home.
Right to safety? Tell that to the female prisoners locked up with male sex offenders.
Right to abortion? Gone in certain countries and abortion is for all people, remember? So if not all people have a problem with lack of safe abortion, who cares
Right to education? The Taliban seems to know which children aren't allowed to go to school, but other children can still go, so what is the problem?

Starting to see the problem yet your statement? Governments are 'rolling back rights for women and girls' but women and girls are no longer a definable group anyway and all rights are human rights so everyone has them and no one can have rights others don't have. So your statement is false (but we all know true but no longer backed by anything as all words are meaningless)

They have the exact same rights as everyone else of their sex.

It is about male demands being put above female needs.

These males think it's their 'human right' to access any and all space, sport and service that exists for female people. So much so they they demand the removal of all legal protections and safeguards of 50% of the population.

Safeguarding is 'transphobic' and women saying no to men is a 'hate crime'

They don't see us as equal, or even human.

Is it me or is it a bit rude to come into a thread with a specifically worded question and not even engage with that question at all? That sort of behaviour is regarded as derailing on some sites.

I'm sure these people are completely certain that what they have to say is so important they don't need to listen to anyone or care what the thread is about, but it strikes me as either massively arrogant or deliberately derailing.

What rights don't trans people have?

My friend was known to be very vulnerable to breast cancer. Delays in getting mastectomy meant she got cancer and endured months of treatment and life long nerve damage. It boils my piss when people think the 'right' for a woman to remove their breasts because they prefer to have a body without them trumps this sort of need. Narcissism at its finest.

I’m willing to accept that in some
parts of the world trans people are not able to live peacefully and express themselves fully without being discriminated against in work, in housing and healthcare.

but I feel confident in stating that in those same countries women and LGB (and probably disabled people too) are also discriminated against compared to the default able bodied, hetero sexual, gender conforming, male.

In fact, in some countries (eg Malta), trans people have more rights than UK trans people (eg self ID) but women have fewer rights (no access to abortion).

FWIW I absolutely believe that trans people should be protected from discrimination in terms of gender expression (ie the bit that’s visible to onlookers) but gender identity can’t be protected because it isn’t observable. In practical terms this would play out much like religion - we can never be sure that someone truly believes in the religion they profess to belong to, so the bit that needs protecting is the outward expression of those beliefs (allowances made for clothing items, such as hijabs or yarmulkes, time & space for prayer, accommodations made for dietary restrictions etc).

so no, a transman shouldn’t be fired from work because they changed their name to one stereotypically male but they also shouldn’t be given access to any male only changing spaces or toilets, because the right to express your gender would not override the right to assemble in a single sex space or access a single sex service.

Trans people can (and do!) have rights, but additional rights, not rights that nullify the rights of others.

As another example, the rights of wheelchair users are to ‘reasonable accommodations’. This is (massively simplified version!) achieved via additions such as ramps, lifts, or, if the person prefers, making sure all their work can be done on the ground floor.

We don’t knock down all workplaces and rebuild them as single story buildings, so why make all changing rooms mixed sex, when the ‘reasonable accommodation’ for a person expressing gender variance/legal transgender status is to continue to accommodate them in their biological sex facility (perhaps by changing door signs from ‘ladies’ to ‘F’’) or by providing an additional, single user space open to people of either sex.

To paraphrase; you say, 'Why can't female people be kind and let male people use their safe spaces?' I say why can't male people respect the safe spaces of female people and use their male spaces? Taking away the rights of women under cover of 'be kind to trans people ' is all part of the extreme misogyny we face.

But the C o E won’t marry you in Church if you are divorced, even if you were divorced thirty years ago. ( unless you are marrying someone in the Royal Family,,of course. That’s fine)

really they are just a complete shower now. Sorry, I know this isn’t entirely relevant, although it does point up that trans people actually receive more consideration in this case than gay couples or slight couples.

and I expect than one of the (3?) MTF vicars would be only to happy to oblige.

Homosexuality was a criminal offence in the UK until 55 years ago. The age of consent was not brought into line with heterosexuals until 2001.

And now TRA are exerting pressure on lesbians to include TW in their dating services, apps and events. According to Stonewall, lesbians not prepared to accommodate are guilty of 'sexual racism'.

So if you're an advocate of gay rights, it's very important to understand how these are being undermined by some TRAs also.

Clue, the common theme is misogyny.

“We demand resources for hair removal anywhere on our bodies, and the option of local anesthetic during these procedures.“

These cowards. Imagine asking your waxing last for a local.

What you see as anti-trans I see as pro-women.

You will note I'm sure that female - male transitioners aren't kicking up a fuss and insisting on being allowed into male sport or male changing rooms or male prisons or male rape therapy groups.

It's the male born people who are making all the noise.

It's the people who were born, raised and socialised as boys/men who want access to female only spaces.

They want to be allowed into breastfeeding groups when they have absolutely no need to attend. They want to be allowed into pregnancy groups when it is physically impossible for them to ever be pregnant, they want to be accepted into spaces where born women would have to tolerate them seeing their naked female bodies, they want to be invited for gynaecological exams that the medical staff cannot physically complete as they do not have the necessary body parts, they want to force female security staff, police offices and prison staff to conduct intimate body searches on them even if the females are not comfortable with that, they want to force female prisoners many of whom have experienced significant sexual abuse to be locked in a cell with them.

These are not neutral scenarios, all of these cause harm to women in order to validate the desires of a transwoman.

If anyone is interested in dates, the Church of England's first serving vicar (since passed away) to transition did that in 2000, and continued in post after the transition.

I’ve just seen an item on my local news, ITV Anglia, with a non binary female complaining that she’s (they used this pronoun) having to wait too long for surgery. They had Jane Fae in the item as well. I’m thinking of asking the news editor why there weren’t any other voices… I think his email is [email protected] and the general email address is [email protected] but I’m not 100 percent sure.

I like the demand that reverse gender reassignment surgery is to be made available on demand so that those who have previously demanded gender reassignment surgery don’t have to live worrying that one day they might regret having demanded and been given gender reassignment surgery.

Isn’t that a bit like demanding a new horse to replace the old one that bolted when you left the stable door unlocked?

I like the demand that reverse gender reassignment surgery is to be made available on demand so that those who have previously demanded gender reassignment surgery don’t have to live worrying that one day they might regret having demanded and been given gender reassignment surgery

And how does that even work? Are the HCPs expected to hold on to the removed breasts/penis so that they can be reattached?

Never has the fantasy land they inhabit been laid out so clearly.

So, two posters ‘bowing’ out after admonishing regular posters on FWR, without being able to do more than attempt emotional manipulation and accuse any female who objects to the clear conflicts of another groups rights impacting theirs as ‘extreme’.

Anyone no see it, yet? The absolute lack of coherent support and reliance only on being seen as ‘the reasonable’ ones. It is not a ‘new’ tactic, but it is one I have seen more of lately after some of the violence of the protestors has been noticed and reported, and since the Cass interim report and the closing of Tavi.

No! If you cannot support your argument, you are obviously unable to see the impacts on women and girls, and you are using recycled trope you have heard from activists who have always wanted ‘no debate’.

What you don’t get to do, is to ‘bow’ out like you have just faced a hostile crowd. When all that has happened is you present shaming posts with unconvincing arguments and people discuss the lack of substance to your arguments.

But yeah… both sides …