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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What does Val McDermid mean?

141 replies

achillestoes · 09/08/2022 11:53

“My view of gender politics is you bring people into the tent. Womanhood is a big tent. It embraces me and Kim Kardashian. There’s certainly room in that tent for the trans women I know.”

Translate. Right answers only.

OP posts:
doilookremotelyinterested · 09/08/2022 20:24

@achillestoes And wearing dresses (well robes, close enough) so they're obviously women.

picklemewalnuts · 09/08/2022 20:29

If anyone can be in it, what's the point of the tent?

PermanentTemporary · 09/08/2022 20:35

Womanhood is gender to me. A gender tent i guess.

It just seems that she no longer thinks sex has the slightest relevance to her life. But she must still know what it is. Knowing what it is is not a crime.

ParvuliThankYouDebbie · 09/08/2022 21:36

achillestoes · 09/08/2022 15:57

‘Does she mean Womanhood is a club that isn’t exclusively adult human females (ie could include drag artists, effeminate men etc)’

I think it’s this. She perceives women who know what women are as mean-spirited gatekeepers. All we have to do - such a tiny, insignificant thing! - is move over and ‘expand’ our definition to fit anyone who wants it, and who wouldn’t do that? Bigots, that’s who.

Oh I see, well in that case, maybe she is just thick instead of disingenuous then. Because if she was TWAW I’d have to conclude she was disingenuous because nobody, and I mean NOBODY, not a single person alive, actually, genuinely, believes adult human males are adult human females, exactly the same, no difference. Sure, lots of people have reasons to pretend they do, not sure what hers might be, but, if as you say it’s more a kindness to let them into the ‘tent’, then she’s just bog standard stupid if she doesn’t understand, or want to understand, why that just doesn’t work for women, the cunty kind that is.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 09/08/2022 22:35

If she sees womanhood as gender, and kk, herself and her nice TWAW friends part of it, it still doesn't explain what links everyone. It doesn't explain gender.

It's not sex or presentation, it can only be 'everyone who wants to be in the tent', with no limits. The only difference between womanhood and presumably manhood is wanting to be part of it.

So it's basically all just tents with random people in them. And womanhood losing any meaning.

RhannionKPSS · 09/08/2022 23:16

TheBiologyStupid · 09/08/2022 19:54

So, McDermid is against rapists in men's football teams but OK with them in women's prisons? Where is she on men in women's football?

She is a hypocrite, big pal of Sturgeon, only concerned with feathering her own nest and completely out of touch with the majority of both straight & lesbian women in Scotland.

SettingsO · 09/08/2022 23:48

*I'm reading it as 'Kim Kardashian is a bloke'.

Amirite*

🤣

SkiingIsHeaven · 09/08/2022 23:58

Humbolt · 09/08/2022 12:24

Val, you can have your big tent full of Kim's and Caitlin Js as long as we can have our women-only tent. I'll bring my beers.

You are not even allowed an awning off the tent.

SkiingIsHeaven · 10/08/2022 00:00

Looks like I will need to stop reading her book. We can cancel in the other direction too.

Athenajm80 · 10/08/2022 00:47

I wonder if Sandy Toksvig and Val would date a TW with a lady penis? Cause if TWAW, then surely both of them would be willing to if they were single? 🤔

Fluffymule · 10/08/2022 01:16

TheBiologyStupid · 09/08/2022 19:54

So, McDermid is against rapists in men's football teams but OK with them in women's prisons? Where is she on men in women's football?

This was my thought too.

I cheered and supported her stance earlier this year when she ended her sponsorship with Raith Rovers after it signed David Goodwillie, and was scathing in her condemnation of the Board for it. I think she went on Women's Hour to speak about him and the club too. She was incandescent about it.

It's jarring to try and understand how her position on this might change when we consider allowing a rapist into a women's prison, rather than her beloved football team.

SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey · 10/08/2022 01:36

Val McDermid has been a virulent MRA/AWA and a misogynist piece of shit for as long as I can remember.

The fact the someone is a woman and can write and writes about women doesn't make them a feminist. Val McDermid is an out and out screaming, flagrant anti-feminist.

nettie434 · 10/08/2022 04:22

TheBiologyStupid · 09/08/2022 19:54

So, McDermid is against rapists in men's football teams but OK with them in women's prisons? Where is she on men in women's football?

Right to the heart of the matter there TheBiologyStupid!

PermanentTemporary · 10/08/2022 06:46

Just a comment about feminists including all.marginalised people.

Sure - but not as women. Gay men who experience homophobia aren't women. Black men who experience racism aren't women. Disabled people excluded from employment aren't necessarily women. The idea that thinking intersectionally means mushing everyone into a single tent is in fact the exact opposite of what Kimberle Crenshaw wrote.

Floisme · 10/08/2022 07:53

PacificState · 09/08/2022 18:38

I'm with @AmaryllisNightAndDay I think. I tried to read a VM book once and it was so appallingly violent I didn't get past the first couple of pages, but whatever - she's not a stupid woman and she's faced down quite a lot of crap in her time I think.

There is a subset of butch lesbians who feel they've suffered greatly at the hands of women's gatekeeping and (frankly) blind prejudice - Finn McKay (radfem TWAW) talks about the number of time women have aggressively challenged her in toilets.

I can understand how that might lead you to feel solidarity with other people with atypical gender presentation.

I don't happen to agree with either of them, but I respect them as people. Also, and I know this sounds preachy, if we want people to stop dismissing GC feminists as dumb and right-wing maybe we have to also stop the kneejerk abuse of anyone who isn't GC.

I was about to post something pithy and dismissive until I read this, but your point about butch lesbians made me stop and think. A former, much missed poster used to talk sometimes about the abuse she got because of her appearance, and I had the impression that some of this abuse was from women.

So yes, I can see how this might lead to a feeling of kinship with gender non-conforming men. It doesn't make any more sense of what McDermid said, but it does make me more curious about what's behind it than I am about, let's say Margaret Atwood's motivations. I'd like to see the whole interview / essay rather than just a couple of sentences so that I can unpick it properly. Does anyone know where it's from? (Sorry if the info's in the thread already but I couldn't see it.)

And yeah, I was going to reply that disagreement didn't = kneejerk abuse but then I read back and, while the vast majority of posts aren't abusive we've still had the likes of 'dim' 'thick' 'stupid' 'bitchy' (which normally gets shot down pretty quickly on here) and 'piece of shit'.

ScreechingEchoChamber · 10/08/2022 08:03

Calling anyone a piece of shit is unacceptable. And yes, insults are unnecessary. VM is clearly intelligent.

I think the problem is most often a couple of blind spots. People fix on the marginalization of transwomen and ignore completely the marginalization of women - particularly some subsets of women who will be disproportionately impacted by the inclusion of males in women's spaces- by spaces I mean not just physical tents but stats, shortlists, groups, etc.

Never yet heard a good reason why it's okay to exclude some.women but not Ok to exclude transwomen. Why do transwomen get priority over women?

Floisme · 10/08/2022 08:12

I'd just like to see the whole article.

LK1972 · 10/08/2022 08:31

@Floisme it was in the Times on the weekend, do you need a share token?

LK1972 · 10/08/2022 08:33

Here you go @Floisme

Tabloid hero is not me — I’d more fun in the 1980s, says Val McDermid

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ba4de4a4-1592-11ed-b96d-f6ca9315edcb?shareToken=3f5ffc2c5053f9912337f2a858319fd6

Pluvia · 10/08/2022 08:43

There is a subset of butch lesbians who feel they've suffered greatly at the hands of women's gatekeeping and (frankly) blind prejudice - Finn McKay (radfem TWAW) talks about the number of time women have aggressively challenged her in toilets.

I'm a lesbian. I have a butch partner, several butch friends and socialise with some very butch women. Some of them — fewer than you might imagine — have been challenged in women's loos over the years and all of them once they've responded (usually with a smile and a cheerful 'I'm a woman, I wouldn't want men in here either') have been fine. The moment they speak, including my 6ft tall pal who has a traditional short back and sides men's cut, other women know. They don't take it personally.

Finn McKay may have had some unfortunate incidents in women-only facilities but I can't help wondering whether she inflates them as a way of supporting her unsupportable position: you can't call yourself a feminist of any kind and centre men.

OldCrone · 10/08/2022 08:47

It was also in this article (sorry, I can't do a share token).
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/val-mcdermid-fears-over-trans-rights-overblown-5cskx29b7

OldCrone · 10/08/2022 08:49

Never yet heard a good reason why it's okay to exclude some.women but not Ok to exclude transwomen. Why do transwomen get priority over women?

Because they're men.

terryleather · 10/08/2022 09:03

VM is tiresome on this subject.

It's really simple.

Men can't be women Val, even your nice pals who think they are one.

ScreechingEchoChamber · 10/08/2022 09:22

Indeed, OldCrone. I'd just like that question asked more often!

SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey · 10/08/2022 11:51

Floisme: we've still had the likes of 'dim' 'thick' 'stupid' 'bitchy' (which normally gets shot down pretty quickly on here) and 'piece of shit'.

ScreechingEchoChamber: Calling anyone a piece of shit is unacceptable. And yes, insults are unnecessary. VM is clearly intelligent.

I was the one who wrote “piece of shit” and I apologise for the wording but not for the sentiment.

The all-out, long-term assault on women’s rights in Scotland is personal to me. I'm somewhat privileged and insulated, but it has hurt and continues to hurt people I love and care about including (and disproportionately) some who are NOT privileged and insulated. It has drained and diminished a country I love. It has redirected energy and resources which are needed for the basic work of protecting people, of building a better society, of mitigating the harm of events like Brexit and COVID and letting people live and thrive. It has redirected resources which belong to everyone in order to help men and hurt women in a society where women are already systemically disadvantaged.

It's not OK.

I am angry, and I am bone weary. I hate what Val McDermid is doing. I hate the effect it has on real people. (Yes, woman are real people.) I hate what Scotland appears to have become, what it looks like to the world.

I read Val McDermid's piece in The Times this past weekend (Val McDermid: fears over trans rights overblown) which OldCrone linked above. Lots of people in Scotland (and beyond) read it. It reduced a very old friend of mine, a longtime Scottish feminist and LGBTQ2IA2+ activist, to tears of despair. Most people who’ve been on here for a bit will recognise the (well-worn, dishonest and intentionally misleading) script: women critiquing the negative impact of policies like self-ID are motivated solely by the fact that transwomen threaten their womanhood/femininity!!!!! Aiiiiiiiiiiii, however, am evolved and so transwomen do not threaten maiiiiiiiiiii womanhood.

This comes on the heels of a campaign Val McDermid ran earlier this year: she spoke at the annual Lesbian Lives conference in Cork, where Susan Stryker was the keynote speaker. Of course McDermid has the right to speak where and when she likes, and if the best candidate that Lesbian Lives could find to give their keynote address happened to be a transwoman, then have at it.

The problem is, though, Stryker is not "just" a transwoman. Stryker is an anti-woman activist (AWA) and is well known in the USA as an outspoken anti-black racist. For these reasons alone, Stryker was an inappropriate choice to lead the conference. When McDermid was questioned about her support of Stryker as keynote speaker, though, she refused to engage and denounced and blocked anyone asking questions one the basis that they were "transphobic".

The principle that a transwoman - ANY transwoman, however egregious personally and politically - should and must lead a lesbian conference was the only thing that mattered to Val. Anybody raising any other concerns was shut down and blocked by Val. Please stop and think for a minute - and if you know a trans person you can speak with honestly, ask them: should trans people be supported in doing and saying absolutely anything just because they are trans? Or is that assumption, in and of itself, an example of (possibly "benign") transphobia?

Val McDermid is an AWA. She is virulently misogynist, whether she actively seeks to harm women as a group and to minimise and hide the structural, systemic damage done every day to women as a group or whether she "just" downplays and attempts to silence all criticism of harm to women in her pursuit of money and fame. I don’t know why she is this way and honestly I can no longer spare the energy to give her the benefit of the doubt or to care. I can’t reason with or influence her if she simply blocks everyone who disagrees and clamps her hands over her ears and sings “na na na na I can’t hear you!” while continuing to use her power, visibility, and privilege to do harm.

And make no mistake, McDermid is doing real, material damage. Real harm. Irreversible harm. To people. To women. Disproportionately, to disadvantaged women.

While ca$hing in on claiming to be a feminist and claiming to care about Scotland. And she actively uses her power and privilege to shut down any criticism or dissent.

It’s not OK.

I’m never going to say or think that it’s OK.

Thanks for reading, anyone who made it this far. Sorry again about the bad word.