Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

Fascinating Didimum, that to:
'I do not want to see a naked male who is not my husband and I do not want a naked male who is not my husband to see me' your reply is:
'You are entitled to whatever boundary you like. That doesn’t mean that your boundary has to be enshrined in law, social contracts, or the policies of private or public organisations.'

This boundary has existed throughout human history, with men expanding considerable amount of energy to break it down - story of Susanna and the Elders is quite old

Just to be clear, you do understand that the men that abused you can now declare themselves a woman and access almost all facilities for women.
They don't need to change anything about themselves, have no diagnosis of anything, no hormones, no surgery, not even changing their clothes, none of it. So now they would have access to any woman that was unlucky enough to be there at the same time.
How do you not see what the outcome of that could be?
Forget being kind and looking the other way, this is already happening and people like you are so caught up in not seeing the downsides that males can abuse your goodwill indiscriminately.
Because honestly, how do you prove that someone who looks just like a generic male really feels like they're a woman? And even if they legitimately think they're a woman, why does everyone else have to act as if that's true?

I do, thank you. Not subscribing to your opinions isn’t ‘non understanding’; it is a misalignment of opinions.

But I guess we do not need that boundary anymore, only the religious and conservatives would defend it, any 'progressive' woman nowadays is expected to feel happy about visually obvious males seeing them naked, or being naked in the same space as a naked person with a penis, otherwise they are transphobic bigots.

Gotcha, thanks! Will sign up for re-education provided by Stonewall asap, I'm sure I'm just an ignorant prude, as I don't actually think I'm a transphobic bigot

I didn’t say it wasn’t long-existing, just that boundaries, however long existing, aren’t necessarily going to be upheld in all the examples I gave.

So in single sex women only facilities that currently have communal changing, where budget means that individual cubicles cannot be installed, do you agree that it's not possible to include trans women in those spaces?

I agree that the facility can exclude trans women if that’s what they want to do.

And in single sex women only faculties that currently have predominantly communal changing and only a few private cubicles, which means that the vast majority of women have to change in the communal area, it's also not possible to include trans women in those spaces?

I can’t see why a facility would be able to provide only private cubicles for everyone except trans people. I should think in that situation they would have to find a way to include them. Also in changing rooms of public facilities I don’t think it’s reasonable to exclude post op people.

@Fieldofgreycorn

I can’t see why a facility would be able to provide only private cubicles for everyone except trans people. I should think in that situation they would have to find a way to include them. Also in changing rooms of public facilities I don’t think it’s reasonable to exclude post op people.

That isn't what I meant in my example.

I'll be clearer.

In many single sex changing rooms, there are 3-4 cubicles plus lots of communal space. They don't provide cubicles for 'everyone except trans people'. They don't provide enough cubicles for everyone, just a few. And it's first come first served if you want one.

So a few women get the cubicles at the time they need them, while most women (including girls) change in the communal area. Which most are happy with as it's a single sex female only changing room.

I'm not saying trans women should be excluded from the private cubicles within a changing room, I'm saying they should be excluded from a changing room that doesn't have enough private cubicles for every person to use.

Because the reality is that unless 10/20+ women and girls all queue up in their towels to wait for the few private cubicles within the communal changing room, they will need to change in the presence of a trans woman should a trans woman enter.

Likewise, they will also need to see a person with a penis changing which as stated previously would mean excluding women who for reasons of sexual trauma triggers, religious beliefs etc as they couldn't risk being in a changing room with a person with a penis.

I'm assuming you don't think that's reasonable? Hopefully not anyway.

@Fieldofgreycorn

Also in changing rooms of public facilities I don’t think it’s reasonable to exclude post op people.

How do we know which members of the public are post op people and which aren't?

How is it possible to police, on an individual basis at the time they wish to enter single sex female only changing rooms of public facilities, whether someone fits that criteria (the criteria being that they are post op) and can therefore use those facilities?

Saying that transwomen should be allowed into women's spaces is very transphobic. You are allowing a subset of genders to have their own facilities (mens and womens) but all other genders have nowhere to go. Where should aliusgender people go, or those who are egogender, healgender, cakegender, exgender etc? You are completely invalidating their gender. Even if you don't believe these genders are valid, what about non binary people?

Having spaces separated by sex is the only fair way. That way males of any gender can use the mens and females of any gender can use the womens spaces. Nobody is making any assumptions about any individual's gender and it is inclusive to everybody.

@Didimum I've quoted your specific reply to a specific boundary, not other examples discussed.

You're arguing that a female's right to not be exposed to male gaze and/or a penis will not always be upheld? Is that correct?

Not other examples, this specific boundary please

Also in changing rooms of public facilities I don’t think it’s reasonable to exclude post op people.

And how do you know they are post op? Do you expect them to declare that to all and sundry? Wait until they are undressed and then the women in there have the option to have them removed if they are not? Bit late then isn't it?

Pre or post op is irrelevant, transwomen are not women and can be legally excluded from all spaces and services for women, GRC holders or not and the GRC does not require surgery by the way in case you were labouring under the impression that it does.

The thing is, anyone opposing women keeping single spaces can have any opinion they like.

But that doesn’t mean that you get to change it, without discussion, without bothering to look up the evidence, without looking at why the equality act includes single sex privacy and dignity in the first place. You don’t get to call other women transphobic just for wanting to keep privacy and dignity for their own sex as has been socially agreed for hundreds of years.

You don’t get to just decide for other women. It’s not your choice to make.

If you feel very strongly that trans women need a space other than male single sex spaces, then go and help them create an alternative.

Tw can go in the cubicles in the males facilities. Problem solved.

@Fieldofgreycorn I would be very grateful if you could please provide a clear definition of a 'genuine' transwoman that you're working from (quotes to refer to you posting that).

I would also be grateful for some definitive distinctions between 'genuine' transwomen, and those that are not 'genuine', but seem to currently be able to take advantage of unclear definitions (in UK) or achieved legal primacy of gender identity over sex (in US).

No, it really isn’t. You can no more invent your own meaning for female than you get to have your own definition of France. Words have meanings, I know your sort have a desperate need to try to obfuscate what female means to get what you want, but no-one else gets to go along with it.

Also, let’s be honest here, you and I both know that you can’t give any coherent definition if your version of the word but that mine, which is the accepted common and scientific one, can be defined in a single sentence.

I'm sorry your mum was distressed, @PoolFloat . It was extremely inappropriate of the transwoman to use a female changing room where women get undressed in communal spaces.

FPFW has resources to help with drafting a letter. I hope the issue is resolvedfor her and her friends.

A transwomen is at a higher risk of being sexually assaultedovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html
Do you think she should be in the men's?
Or do you think we should go back to segregation days? No Irish , no blacks etc

Well if going back in time is an option I'd like to go back to the relatively recent days when a man in a women's changing room would have been arrested!

@Didimum Sorry if I came across as attacking you, I think I'm just slightly bewildered at the argument I think you're making, IF I understand you correctly, but happy to continue engaging (I don't mean to be over- forceful or uncivil, but am aware I don't always succeed )

This.

And if anyone disagreeing on this thread thinks it’s not this. You need to long hard look at your own attitudes, why is causing so much distress to other women the preferred option to the above?

I am saying, as evidenced by these disputes in policies of pool changing rooms etc, that those boundaries won’t always be upheld. We are seeing, in real terms, that they are not being upheld.

And thank you for clarifying the above.

And why do none of the TRAs think it reasonable for the male in this situation to stick to the changing facility that had been allocated only to him?We know the answer of course. They, and he don’t want privacy, they want to be around naked and vulnerable women.

the few private cubicles within the communal changing room, they will need to change in the presence of a trans woman should a trans woman enter.

Likewise, they will also need to see a person with a penis changing which as stated previously would mean excluding women who for reasons of sexual trauma triggers, religious beliefs etc as they couldn't risk being in a changing room with a person with a penis.

I'm assuming you don't think that's reasonable? Hopefully not anyway.

I see if there are private cubicles within the female communal area, and access couldn’t be given to those cubicles without them going into the communal area. If the person has a penis then it is not unreasonable to exclude them. If we’re talking about public changing rooms, gyms, leisure centres etc and they are post op genitally then I do think it would be unreasonable to exclude them.

@Fieldofgreycorn I don’t think you know what trans ideology is. In no way would the trans activists accept that there should be any difference in access between a bloke with no changes physically and a beard and someone who has gone through major surgery. They have argued very hard on that point and will not budge.

@Didimum I also think it was somewhat unfair if you to imply that many women on this board call all transwomen predators or pedophiles, base on a discussion you referred to.

For those who've not seen the other thread - it discussed a transwoman in US seemingly given a job of supervising minor female children during changing after swimming. An 80-yr old life-long feminist was almost arrested for using wrong words (referring to genitalia, the worst thing you can apparently mention to any other human being) to question this arrangement.

The transwoman in question appears to have discovered her identity in March this year (hence highly unlikely to have had an SRS), but many, many women appear to find absolutely no issue in attempts to impose the same laws in this country.

It's an interesting position to take whilst defending 'women's rights' in an abstract on the other breath.

How is it possible to police, on an individual basis at the time they wish to enter single sex female only changing rooms of public facilities, whether someone fits that criteria (the criteria being that they are post op) and can therefore use those facilities?

It’s the same answer that is often given on this forum to the question ‘how are you going to have genital inspections in toilets?’ Etc. The answer is (as is often stated here) you’re not - you rely on people to do the right thing.