Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

And you are perfectly entitled to stand up to that.

Again, you are being dishonest here. A male, however they “identify” has no right to be in a female-only space.

If you’re going to ban a trans woman from using a female changing room you need to have a policy and makes that really explicit. The law is clear that the exception is to exclude eg. you can legally exclude a transsexual from certain counselling groups. The law includes, the exception is to exclude. If you’re going to exclude that would need to be very clearly communicated.

It’s also not yours or anyone else’s job to police what sex people are. (Unless someone is taking the p. Obviously a male who is not transsexual and has not transitioned should not be in a female space).

That’s why I said ‘rights or wishes’. I understand what a legal right is.

Enough to be considered that sex for many purposes but obviously not all.

what “purposes?” 🧐

This is a ridiculous thing to say. Taking exogenous estrogen doesn’t make you into a woman any more than taking taurine supplements makes you into a bull.

Obviously a male who is not transsexual and has not transitioned should not be in a female space).

How do I tell the difference between them and a male who identifies as a woman

And this is where it all falls apart because of your finale line.

It is now accepted that you do not have to present as the gender, take any hormones or have any surgery to be a Transperson.

So how do we know whether the man in the changing rooms is a woman?

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind.

I am being very kind - TO WOMEN AND GIRLS - they are my priority, not men however they identify. It's not fear and nervousness, don't be so bloody patronising, it's simple, basic, consideration for women and girls, not treating them as second class unworthy citizens.

Can we just have a quick sense check about the rights of minorities?

Women are subject to disadvantage in a patriarchal world, yes.
Women are vulnerable to abuse from physically stronger and more aggressive men.
Women are roughly 50% of the population, and have full rights.

Women are not a minority, and the preference of the vast majority of 50% of the population for a situation that gives them safety and security is not to be dismissed to pander to a tiny minority.

Thank you for replying. I am an atheist, so would agree that perhaps it is the religion that is the problem. But that's not the point is it? People have their religion as part of who they are, so it is entirely irrelevant to use the argument that maybe we need to sort out religion, that is clearly impossible. They feel god in their heart, (it doesn't matter whether non-believers feel that is right or wrong, that is nobodies business but theirs) why should that make their feelings less worthy of a man who feels they are a woman in their hearts?

And of course I understand you personally don't have the answer, but unfortunately, before womens' spaces are arbitrarily opened up to men, these questions must be answered so there is a clear and all-encompassing answer so that ALL parties, minorities and others know what the "rules" are and can make informed choices. And until there are clear rules, no woman should be forced to "be kind" against their beliefs, religious or just personal.

Obviously a male who is not transsexual and has not transitioned should not be in a female space).

TW are male so are men so why should 1 subset of males be allowed in female spaces and not the other?

If you are referring to the conversation between me and @CatsAreCrackers, we (or at least I) was referring to Muslim women who uphold that requirement of their religion - that is a minority in this country.

I would argue whether it is the religion itself which is eroding the freedom - not the facility that puts a policy in place that is at odds with the requirements of that religion and not the transwoman whose wishes are at odds with the requirements of that religion.

A religion is a set of beliefs that informs perceived requirements for followers of those beliefs.

To think that a man can become a woman and therefore needs access to womens facilities is also a belief that informs perceived requirements for followers of those beliefs.

What does the latter trump the former?

I agree with you.

I don’t think the latter should trump the former. You’ll see in my earlier reply that I said neither one should automatically trump the other.

@Fieldofgreycorn

Obviously a male who is not transsexual and has not transitioned should not be in a female space).

How is that going to be policed?

If that statement above formed the basis of your policy at a facility, for example. How do women know which have transitioned or not and therefore which you believe should, on sight, be welcomed by women into a single sex space without complaint and which we should report to the facility as using it against policy?

any more than taking taurine supplements makes you into a bull

It’s these silly disingenuous comments that makes people want to disengage. Obviously a human can’t be a bull. But a human can be a man or a woman. You can change some sex characteristics. Hormones can induce secondary sex characteristics and alter some primary (in f2m) and surgery can create a reasonable facsimile.

what “purposes?”

For purposes like how people are treated socially, pronouns, how people are addressed, tittles (Mr or Ms), how people are perceived, what spaces people use, being able to get married as a man or a woman, what law applies if they experience sex discrimination, whether they can adopt children as a man or woman.

In the case of shop changing rooms the EHRC have clarified that separate cubicles provides enough privacy to include trans women.

@Didimum

I don’t think the latter should trump the former. You’ll see in my earlier reply that I said neither one should automatically trump the other.

But where there is a direct conflict, surely you have an opinion about which should trump the other if it came down to it?

@Fieldofgreycorn

In the case of shop changing rooms the EHRC have clarified that separate cubicles provides enough privacy to include trans women.

So in single sex women only facilities that currently have communal changing, where budget means that individual cubicles cannot be installed, do you agree that it's not possible to include trans women in those spaces?

And in single sex women only faculties that currently have predominantly communal changing and only a few private cubicles, which means that the vast majority of women have to change in the communal area, it's also not possible to include trans women in those spaces?

We do seem to treat - not just elders - anyone over 50 as a nuisance these days. You become invisible as a woman when you hit your 40s.

@Whitehorsegirl I truly don’t get why you would back men in women’s single spaces without doing your due diligence and actually finding out if this is a problem. Due diligence being, listening to other women (like on this thread) who are saying it’s a problem for them. Legitimate lived experience. And evidence and research. We all have google. I truly don’t get why you would be a bit lazy to be honest to just back a big change of women’s boundaries without properly looking at what that actually means for other women other than yourself.

Is this why there are so many trans ‘allies’. Because you don’t want to look at both actual facts (not just propoganda on twitter) or listen to other women?

I really truly don’t get it. If a big change such a men being allowed into women’s single spaces is going to happen, then the onus is on anyone saying that should happen to listen to any concerns and look at the evidence, and prove that there will be zero harm to others. Not to just go ahead without doing of this work.

No, not even close to being enough to being treated as the opposite sex.

It was communicated clearly, both to the male in this situation and the women.

He chose to then invade the female-only space.

And please “police” what someone’s sex is? Sex is not a question of opinion.

I don’t have an opinion on that specific conflict at this time. Empathy is not finite.

No, you clearly don’t. You don’t even seem to understand what male and female means.

Not to mention that Taurine isn’t actually specific to only bulls.