Is trans movement now, comparable to LGB movement back in the day?

[JasmineVioletRose]

Arrrrgh! DH has just said to me that perhaps the trans movement is comparable to the LGB movement of the 70’s and 80’s. And that because of this he feels uncomfortable with my terfy views. I’m trying really hard not to rant. Can anyone share any helpful links I can send him to address his misconceptions?

He's not saying TWAW no.

More athletes.

tThese five pictures include some men competing as men. Can he identify which they are? How?

He doesn't think they should.

LGB people fighting S28 were fighting for their rights to be as ordinary as straight people.

TRAs now are fighting for the right to make everyone else submit to their ideology. Regardless who gets hurt, trans or not.

Big difference.

He thinks that some of the points I have made about sexual predators taking advantage of self ID are comparable to old bigoted views about LGB people being paedophilles

Then I’m afraid he actually is dumb. Is he allergic to news? Have you shown him Karen White?

JellySaurus
Is he interested in sport?

Ask him why these individuals should be competing against women.
He doesn't think they should.

Then why should they invade and colonise other spaces for women? Including our heads!

Fundamentally the question is, what does it mean to be trans?

Because otherwise you can't talk about people being marginalized or anything else.

And when you define it, the next question is, is that true? Does it make sense? If a trans person is someone who is being treated for gender dysphoria, is that a real diagnosis with a treatment based on good medical practice? If it's, anyone who is gender non-conforming is trans, does he think that is what makes people trans? Or for any other definition - does the claim reflect reality?

And then the third question is, do the things activists are claiming as rights really follow from the true definition? If some people are gender dysphoric, does that really make them women? Does it mean they should be in women's prisons? Etc.

Can you ask him to clarify what rights he believes trans people don't have?

what rights do gay and lesbian people have that trans people are yet to win?

what rights do non trans people have that trans people dont?

does he think women should give up their rights so trans people can have more rights?

Well, depends on his threshold of kindness I guess.

Helen Joyce writes that transphobia is nothing like the heights of homophobia back in the day. In fact, in the UK we are remarkably tolerant towards how others dress and present.

The problems gay people had was past generation's distaste in their lifestyle. The problems with trans lobby groups are that they infringe upon another group's rights. That's where the anger comes from. Your 'mean attitude' stems from their 'mean attitude'.

I would keep asking him questions like you are. Men's boundaries aren't being threatened so it might take more time. How does he feel about a grown man following a young girl that he knows into a changing room for example? How can you maintain safeguarding whilst 'being kind' to everyone in the equation? Which is more important?

LGB is a sexuality. It demands nothing of people other than acceptance that there’s nothing “lesser” about wanting to sleep with people of the same sex rather than the opposite sex. Whether someone is gay, straight or bi has no impact on anyone else.

T is an identity. It demands that people alter their language in counterintuitive ways; that people deny objective reality to validate someone else’s self-perception. It demands that women relinquish single-sex spaces, including rape crisis centres and prison cells. It makes lifelong medical patients of children without any diagnostic test to differentiate those who would naturally desist without medical intervention. Under its umbrella it has provided men with a documented paraphilia with a veneer of respectability in order to indulge that paraphilia in women’s private spaces.

If your husband can’t see the difference between the two movements, he needs to brush up on his critical thinking skills.

Transpeople do not deserve to be discriminated against when it comes to housing, healthcare, jobs or anything else just because of how they choose to present. But there is no “human right” to be validated in an untruth. They are not asking for equality, the way LGB people rightfully were. They are demanding special privileges, and the fact they are being listened to so enthusiastically shows just how very far from “oppressed” they actually are, as a group.

He would probably rugby tackle a man following a girl into a changing room!

I think you are right. It's hard to fully comprehend when it's not your own rights under attack isn't it 🤷🏻‍♀️

So he really is just like Maya's employers then.

He believes that people should have the freedom to have those thoughts, but because of 'kindness', should not be able to voice them. When not voicing concerns and alternative views means that groups take that lack of vocalised objection to be full support and then enact changes to the detriment of women... who he has effectively silenced.

Who does kindness benefit the most? Recent history has proven that remaining silent certainly does not benefit women. And to persist in telling women to remain 'kind' is sexist in this instance.

I'd also ask him to produce the evidence that transitioned males are less 'predatory' than the general male population.

It's hard to comprehend when you haven't seen what's happening in action, would be my observation. I've found that women are no more likely to get it than men are, maybe less so actually.

It's not until you start to see the kind of demands, the fatuous arguments, the lack of substance, that it becomes clear that there is something weird going on.

Not every element of the argument around gay rights was above board, or strong. But to a large degree it involved a kind of public negotiation around social change where a lot of people came to a similar viewpoint. Things like, what is marriage for, does the social acceptance of different sorts of sexual activities cause social problems or is it essentially a private matter.

The trans rights movement hasn't been much like that at all. The few things that it really had to contest, like changing your sex markers or using facilities related to sex, were demanded as rights - there was no real public discourse around their purpose of larger social impacts.

Tell your husband that 'be kind' is what men say to women who won't comply.

It’s not the same thing because the movement is asking for something which is not possible - because it’s not real.
Gender does not equal biological sex. you cannot change biological sex.

same sex attraction (including all the variations) is a real thing in nature and in humans. It’s recognised, documented, proven.

so no they are not the same - you don’t have to go anywhere near the dangers to women by opening up safe spaces and all the other problems it brings.
the simple fact is they aren’t comparable because LGB people weren’t seeking rights based on a made up ideology. TWAW is made up. Because sex does not equal gender. And gender isn’t real anyway.

sooooo I probably couldn’t entertain conversations with him on it bc He’d have his bags packed by the end of the night!

The LGB movement wasn't about taking away from others, it was about giving people the freedom to be in a consensual relationship with like minded people. Whether that was romantic or sexual or both was up to them. Ultimately being LGB hurts absolutely no one.

The trans movement is about solidifying harmful stereotypes about each sex, riding roughshod over women's sex based protections specifically women's and rather oddly considering the origins of the stonewall riots...being incredibly homophobic where being same sex attracted has become a "phobic" declaration. These are all ideas rooted in causing harm and distress, ultimately expressions of aggression and dominance.

If the trans movement was about recognising a need for 3rd space provisions, enabling trans folk to have their medical records reflect their true make up (sex, then whether they are taking cocktails to achieve a more feminine or masculine appearance) then I'd be far more supportive. All other protections are already afforded to them under EA2010.

Truly trans people are suffering because of the people men abusing the kindness intended behind the TWAW idea and claiming trans status to access women at their most vulnerable, or to achieve dominance, e.g. sport

GC folk can't afford to be kind and turn the other cheek. There needs to be consistent vigilance and zero tolerance of trying to delete women as a sex based group. Without that basic identification none of our other rights count for anything.

'I think he finds it hard to distinguish between AGPs and people with actual real gender dysphoria.'

Well, yes, that's the problem. How can anyone?

I support peaceful protest and I try to remain open-minded, respectful, and compassionate.

Some people see it as 'a bit mean' when women say no.

Women say 'no, thank you'. That's all.

To some people, that's unacceptable. Ask him why.

He would probably rugby tackle a man following a girl into a changing room!

If he thinks a TW owes him femininity in exchange for acceptance then he's transphobic. He doesn't seem very well informed about the issues but I guess it's useful for putting women in their box by telling them to be kind. Funny how women are expected to be kind but TW aren't, I wonder why that is? "Be kind" can frankly fuck off, it's a demand, which if met, only works to the detriment of women.

Show him this photo and ask him to tell you which is which and then ask him how he would tell the difference IF one of them was a predator. Non of them have been accused of predatory behaviour to my knowledge, although two of them do have form for vicious, bullying misogyny which isn't very kind.

Gay rights are based around the fact that some people are attracted to the same sex or both sexes, which hurts and affects no one. It was a movement for equal rights and did not infringe on anyone else’s rights or require facts to be changed and words and meanings “redefined”.

Trans rights are based around eroding facts, misrepresenting science and spreading pseudoscientific nonsense such as “gender identities” which have no scientific basis, with the sole aim of justifying the demands of and thus allowing a minority of people to live in a fantasy world where they do not have to accept reality, it requires us to turn well established terms such as man and woman into meaningless “identities” and feelings. Men cannot become women, that is a fact, a woman is an adult human being with XX chromosomes, not an identity or a feeling someone has.

One belief: people have a gender that is different to their body; their gender is more important than the mundanity of sex.

Another belief: people have a soul that is different to their body; their soul is more important than the mundanity of the body.

The first belief is Trans, the second is Christianity.

Many Christians have deeply held beliefs and live their lives in accordance with those beliefs. Similarly many trans people.

Would it be acceptable for Christians to impose their faith and their faith practices on Jews, Muslims, Hindus atheists? Would it be acceptable for them to insist that all students must recite Our Father at school assrmbly? That Jews are invalidating them when they are happy to work on Sundays? That Muslims should lose their jobs for refusing to eat potk?

So why should it be acceptable for believers in the trans faith to impose their beliefs and practices on people who do not believe that woman is a feeling in a man's head?

Who Are the Rich, White Men Institutionalizing Transgender Ideology?

thefederalist.com/2018/02/20/rich-white-men-institutionalizing-transgender-ideology

Ahh, so he thinks that women are service humans who should be mummy for everyone.

I think he finds it hard to distinguish between AGPs and people with actual real gender dysphoria.

Doesn't make any difference. Males have no right to colonise women's spaces, not matter how unhappy they are.

He just still feels like sometimes the GC fem movement is a bit mean to a marginalised group.

2 things then - in what way in our current culture are trans people marginalised? Is it not the most liberal culture we have EVER lived in?

The second thing is what does "genuine gender dysphoria" mean? It is fine that people present in which ever way they want (within the bounds of public decency). Fill your boots. Everyone should be treated with respect. But does everyone have to lie in order to support. I don't just mean be polite. I mean do we have to speak untruth. How is that helpful to anyone? Not least the gender dysphoric person?

I have had this on my timeline today - the most marginalised and vulnerable people anywhere. It is a lie. You only have to look at the people fleeing Ukraine for example and other refugees. GC feminisists are not a bit mean. We are realists.

This thread is fascinating and extremely detailed. I haven’t sat down to read it all yet, but there is a huge amount of information here.
The Trans Umbrella Is Older Than You Think | Mumsnet

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4281733-The-Trans-Umbrella-Is-Older-Than-You-Think?page=2
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4281733-The-Trans-Umbrella-Is-Older-Than-You-Think?page=2&reply=118807676

Also, if you look up the LGB Alliance that might help.