Is trans movement now, comparable to LGB movement back in the day?

[JasmineVioletRose]

Arrrrgh! DH has just said to me that perhaps the trans movement is comparable to the LGB movement of the 70’s and 80’s. And that because of this he feels uncomfortable with my terfy views. I’m trying really hard not to rant. Can anyone share any helpful links I can send him to address his misconceptions?

I am entitled to having a different perspective. I do not feel less of a woman by the inclusion of trans women and I do not feel remotely threatened by trans women in female spaces. I do find the vilification really disturbing, and agree with OP’s husband that history will be on the side of inclusivity.

What if your 9 your old son needs the toilet?

Ask him to look at the whole thing through the lens of ‘do no harm’ and see where this leads him to.

@aseriesofstillimages

I don't know. What do you think?

I am a woman and have a DD. It's what I know. Interested to hear your view

There is a comparison with straight women objecting to lesbians sharing changing rooms with them.

I don’t know, I didn’t realise the sex/gender of adults using the toilet was a key factor in whether it was safe for a child of a particular age to use the toilet on their own. If a 9 year old uses the men’s toilet on his own do you think he might be at risk from the adult men using it?

There is a comparison with straight women objecting to lesbians sharing changing rooms with them.

can we not? It's a very offensive comparison, because 98% of sex crimes are committed by men. Paraphilias such as voyeurism and exhibitionism are very rare among women but they're very common among men, especially men who have other paraphilias.

Surely it's that LGB's were fighting for their rights without trying to take anyone else's away. Whereas the T's don't seem to give a shit and are happy to ride roughshod over anyone and everyone to get what they want. Happy to take womens exclusive sex based rights and entitlements and give them to literally any Tom, Dick or Harry that wants to claim them.

@aseriesofstillimages

Very few women care about lesbians sharing changing rooms with them. Because lesbians don't as a class commit a high proportion of sexual crimes against women, nor are they very likely to be stronger than them. Male people are much more likely to commit sex crimes and to be stronger. It's just basic risk.

If you care so much about statistics, what are the actual rates of abuse by trans women vs men generally

If you care so much about statistics, what are the actual rates of abuse by trans women vs men generally

Strangely no one's studied this much. But transwomen in prison are 2-3 times more likely to be in for sexual crimes than men who don't identify as trans. We can certainly say there is no evidence that transwomen are less likely to be abusive than other men.

We could also look at the way that trans activists behave and speak in public towards women and make some deductions about how they are likely to behave when no one is watching them.

And frankly, anyone who's educated themselves either by reading trans Twitter or by reading r/MtF or r/mypartneristrans (both trans friendly forums) will be aware that there are many aspects of trans culture that actively encourage abusive behaviour towards women, in private as well as in public.

Op,

If your husband is just shutting down, it might be time to take a break from the topic for a bit. No one can be totally invested in everything, and sometimes it can just get a bit much for anyone. And no one likes to feel like their partner is browbeating them either.

However, I wonder if a different approach might be worthwhile. Rather than trying to point things out, ask him what he thinks trans rights should look like, and why.

Right now it sounds like he has a bunch of ideas but they aren't really systematic. Chances are that what he thinks would be totally unacceptable to TRAs.

The penny drops for a lot of people when they realize their own considered views would bring them really quite nasty vitriol, and that "being mean" has been about the only thing that has kept the most extreme people from having their way entirely, because they certainly won't listen to people trying to be nice.

I’ve been thinking about this.

For me there is a big distinction between people wanting to be respected, tolerated and allowed to live their lives according to what they feel, as gay people are, and that does no harm to others, as being gay in no way impinges on another’s belief or harms others.

And some of the trans movement which is about pushing other’s boundaries (women’s sports, spaces), calling other groups by names (cis, Terf), saying their feelings trump other’s feelings (e.g. not wanting to be asked ‘which sex’ on a form, as that might offend, and saying that other people must affirm their beliefs (pronouns, biology is wrong).

They seem to me to be completely different movements entirely.

Just show him this gif really. 'Be kind' got us in this mess. We all start out 'being kind.' Fuck that.

I think this is probably all true.

If you care so much about statistics, what are the actual rates of abuse by trans women vs men generally

And where do you suggest we get those statistics? Considering at any one time the MOJ has admitted they are unable to provide the number of transitioned males who are housed in the female prison estate and the sex data for crimes has been recorded as gender by some police forces.

A group of women’s rights activists has matched the convictions to known UK prisoners and have produced a number which has been presented to a government committee, and the sex crime rate for those trans prisoners are much higher than the general male population.

If any poster on this thread has stats that support that transitioned males commit sex crimes at a rate anywhere near the general female population, please do post those. Something may have been released without us seeing it.

Otherwise, the information to hand shows that these males do commit sex crimes at a rate at least comparable to the general male population. The pattern has been noted in other countries as well as the UK.

Just because a female accepts that risk for themselves as an individual, others do not.

Who benefits ultimately when women are pressured, in any way, to accept this unwanted risk?

And what exactly are the direct benefits to females and children for accepting this higher risk for themselves?

or to put it another way.

What exactly are the benefits to females and children for lowering their boundaries to accept people into their spaces that seem to have the same risk level as the general male population or higher?

Get him to read Helen Joyce's book, or watch one of millions of interviews she's done on youtube (I suggest picking a recent one rather than an early one because she has become much firmer).

She says the best approach with people like your husband is to ask questions. He hasn't reasoned himself into his position so you can't reason him out of it. But, you can help him to reason himself out of it.

I'll also say, why the hell should we be kind to people who are trampling our boundaries, colonising our spaces, taking the words we use to describe ourselves and putting us at risk from predators? No thank you. I'm done being kind.

No not comparable, the LGB campaign asked for rights that did not conflict with the rights of another group. Trans campaign for rights that impact directly with the rights of women.
It fails the JS Mill test.

I don't remember free speech denied, language changing and 'repeat after us' tactics so no.

have either of you used the phrase womens rights much? Because that is what this is about - womens rights.

IIRC gay sex between men was illegal but nor between women?

So it disproportionately affected men Astley could get a criminal record.

One time men were not put first.

If you care so much about statistics, what are the actual rates of abuse by trans women vs men generally

Data gathered by FPFW shows that TW in prison are significantly more likely to be convicted sex offenders than the rest of the male prison population who are already many times more likely than women to commit violent or sexual offences.

fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/prisons/

A rational person would stop to think about whether TW are actually more likely to be sex offenders or whether sex offenders are more likely to claim to be trans if they think it will get them transferred to a women's prison. The data is ignored and the question is avoided by TRA's because it highlights the madness of self ID policies.

TW are male and present the same risks to women as any other male.

And me. I'm a honey badger when it comes to shite like this.

I think the difference is that sometimes people want the same rights and sometimes people want the rights other people have.

We have a society where multiple religions coexist fairly peacefully. That is because they have the same rights (places of worship, rights to believe etc) but are not being forced together. That was the model LGB rights took.
TRA arguments are the equivalent of people telling the Christians that now their was a significant Muslim population, they now needed to share their churches with Muslim people, have no outwardly Christian signs in them etc - just shove along a bit to fit these people in. How well does that ever work?

If trans rights actually argued for compromise solutions, for their own services, women would be right behind them. Why can't we have a situation where the standard male toilets are remodelled, with gender neutral cubicles first and urinals through a door. This would reduce female queues as well? Ask your DH why there are no solutions like this being campaigned for?

Also, the LGB movement in the 80s was horribly set back and damaged by PIE trying to piggyback onto the movement. That is the closest parallel I can see to what is happening now. I don't think we can look back and claim that the accusations that gay people were paedophiles, which is horrible, was not influenced by the groups claiming that, actually children also have a sexuality and should be able to sleep with old men and that it was similar to same sex attraction. It took the LGB movement getting their own house in order and setting boundaries to draw a line under this - the current TRA movement still appears to be fully supportive of the trans rapists, those suggesting children are kinky etc.

if a trans woman is going into a woman's room

Or saying "but I'm a woman so I do have every right to live in your house". Because that's an intrusion in itself.