Is trans movement now, comparable to LGB movement back in the day?

[JasmineVioletRose]

Arrrrgh! DH has just said to me that perhaps the trans movement is comparable to the LGB movement of the 70’s and 80’s. And that because of this he feels uncomfortable with my terfy views. I’m trying really hard not to rant. Can anyone share any helpful links I can send him to address his misconceptions?

CatSpeakForDummies · Today 09:24
I think the difference is that sometimes people want the same rights and sometimes people want the rights other people have.

We have a society where multiple religions coexist fairly peacefully. That is because they have the same rights (places of worship, rights to believe etc) but are not being forced together. That was the model LGB rights took.
TRA arguments are the equivalent of people telling the Christians that now their was a significant Muslim population, they now needed to share their churches with Muslim people, have no outwardly Christian signs in them etc - just shove along a bit to fit these people in. How well does that ever work?

If trans rights actually argued for compromise solutions, for their own services, women would be right behind them. Why can't we have a situation where the standard male toilets are remodelled, with gender neutral cubicles first and urinals through a door. This would reduce female queues as well? Ask your DH why there are no solutions like this being campaigned for?

Also, the LGB movement in the 80s was horribly set back and damaged by PIE trying to piggyback onto the movement. That is the closest parallel I can see to what is happening now. I don't think we can look back and claim that the accusations that gay people were paedophiles, which is horrible, was not influenced by the groups claiming that, actually children also have a sexuality and should be able to sleep with old men and that it was similar to same sex attraction. It took the LGB movement getting their own house in order and setting boundaries to draw a line under this - the current TRA movement still appears to be fully supportive of the trans rapists, those suggesting children are kinky etc.

This is a very good explanation imo.

The LGB movement back in the day was all about gaining rights for their community. It was about fairness.

The trans movement want the same but it seems to come at the expense of women's rights. Their rights seem to trump women's rights and people don't seem to understand that this is not fair or just.

The LGB movement didn't take away other's rights and didn't trump anyone else's rights. They just wanted fairness.

@RandomlyThrownTogether www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rape-crisis-chief-mridul-wadhwa-steps-back-from-bigot-comments-2b9kdvc75

She's rowing back? About time. Maybe she's getting worried. I couldn't read the whole article but they carefully quoted her original remarks at the start so she's not getting away with it.

Let's keep supporting Sarah!

(Sorry for thread derail. As you were!)

I think the other big differentiator is the involvement of children.

The gay rights movement was very much about adults obtaining equal rights.

A lot of the Trans movement is about children being able to transition. I find that very uncomfortable, I have huge concerns about mental health and well-being, the medicalisation aspects and potential long term harms and about the sexualisation of minors (children drag queens as a concept horrifies me).

You are personally yes. You are not entitled to impose that perspective on other people.

Also please define trans woman. That has changed.

Women have been inclusive of transexual women. They do use female spaces eg toilets and have done so quietly and without incident for many years.

What is being asked for now is different. For it to be enshrined in law, that anyone who declares they have a feminine gender identity should have unfettered access to all female spaces, to criminalise anyone who objects and to breach the few remaining female reserved services. Rape crisis services, breast feeding groups, lesbian communities. Female only for good reason.

These spaces are being ruined and made to not just include but often center trans women. (See threads on la leche league) Meanwhile no one objects to trans women only spaces and services.

So your perspective is irrelevant and if you can't see the above it is not a neutral perspective.

She said meanly.

Thats great for you. But what about the women who, for a wide range of reasons, do feel uncountable with male bodies in female spaces? Tough shit? Are they just being 'mean'?

The Times reported this in 2018 under FOI. Interesting read for those who think mixed spaces are safe…

Fair Play for Women

I understand and respect that that's your honest view, but if I may try to explain the difference imo

My daughter is a lesbian, the gay community (back in the day) would have wanted to tell her that that is ok and she can grow up to live a happy fulfilled life as a lesbian and find love friendship and acceptance as a woman who is a lesbian.

Gender Identity theory has her thinking that woman is a set of nebulous undefined standards she has to measure herself against to try to figure out if she 'fits in' to this small prescribed view of femininity and so I can say with some certainty that these ideas are causing at least one young lesbian significant distress. From where I'm stood this is the opposite of progressive...

As for GNC boys I would also want to reassure them that they too can grow up to live a happy fulfilled life with love and acceptance, but they will only (in my opinion) find that if they can love and accept themselves. I do not believe that there is a path to happiness and self fulfillment which is based on denying biological reality and bullying others that they may not speak the truth to you or point out reality. If you give the impression that you care nothing for the feelings and comfort of others it will be incredibly isolating and get in the way of building secure relationships. This is why (imo) many trans women are not TWAW purists.

There are two categories of reasons why the sexes are treated differently. The first category is sexist bullshit, I would support any and everyone to challenge sexist bullshit. The second is where there are good and important reason for it. What the law calls a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. I am happy for society to have calm careful thoughtful discussions about which category a particular rule falls into. I am not happy to accept a climate of "sit down, shut up, no discussion, asking questions is inherently bigoted" and I'm not happy to agree that the sexed body a person is born into never matters in any circumstances.

Ask him if he thinks Rachel Dolezal is comparable to Rosa Parks/MLK.
Is that the 'new frontier' of racial equality?

That was because they didn’t believe women could have sex with each other as they believed sex had to involve penetration with a penis.

@Labadabbado "If you care so much about statistics, what are the actual rates of abuse by trans women vs men generally" I'm a big fan of evidence based policy and I am actually open to people changing my mind about things so I'll say the following...

There is no robust statistical study on that I'm afraid, and furthermore there can be no such robust study carried out until we actually have a consistent agreed definition of what a trans woman is (amongst those proposing the change). If trans woman genuinely have a very different pattern of offence from men in general it would be to their benefit to have the crimes committed by trans women recorded as being committed by trans women. But thus far tra have been campaigning vehemently against that, which does not serve to build trust or establish an evidence base. Within a framework of self id (which is what the recording of crime stats in the UK is currently based on) I am unable to articulate an accurate way to tell the difference between a trans woman offending and a man pretending to be a trans woman in order to offend. At the moment many trans women seem to find the point just after they're arrested a convenient time to share their gender identity, that too does not seem entirely sincere to me. Or to many trans allies who then invoke the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I don't generalise about trans people - I really don't but I also think manners and etiquette work in both directions and the issues of etiquette manners boundaries and respect brought up by homosexual men presenting as women and wanting male partners to treat them like a lady and a clean place to do their make up and heterosexual men presenting as women and wanting to use women's toilets dormitories and changing rooms and expecting lesbians to sleep with them whilst aggressively policing women's ability to talk about how the person / co-worker / ex-husband / neighbour is behaving or making them uncomfortable are not identical issues. A young homosexual girl could describe herself as a non binary lesbian, as could a 42 year old heterosexual man. Both of these people would fall under the trans umbrella, one of them I want to be in the women's loos / changing rooms with me and the other I don't.

I find the attitude that trans woman have a very different offending profile to men as a whole to be based on assumptions about trans women which are either demonstrably wrong (that they are a subset of gay men, or that they have all had, or plan to have bottom surgery or hormones) or which are articles of faith (a faith I happen not to share) I have never heard a definition of gender identity which could not have been replaced with the word soul e.g. a girl soul born in a boy body - and whilst it makes total sense to me that people who believe in souls could be persuaded that there are boy souls and girl souls the existence of Gender Identity seems equally unverifiable to me.

Yes.

Discomfort is not a sufficient reason for discrimination.

No? So women are not entitled to dignity and comfort away from males? Plus, safeguarding.

Anyone provided up to date studies or statistics to show that transitioned males commit sex crime at the same rate females do, yet?

Discomfort is not a sufficient reason for discrimination

So women's discomfort with sharing a space with males doesn't matter, but transwomen's discomfort at sharing a space with other males matters a lot?

Why do transwomen's feelings matter more than women's feelings in your mind?

Is it because transwomen are men?

Ultimately I think the underlying reason some women have been accepting of transwomen in certain women's spaces is the underlying assumption that they are attracted sexually to men, and have had their penis and testicles removed, or that they don't work because of hormones.

Even then it tends to be situations where they are talking about sharing toilets with cubicles in a workplace or busy public spot, not changing rooms or toilets in isolated bus stations.

@Baaaaaa My perspective does not become irrelevant just because it differs from yours.

This thread is full of fearmongering about hypothetical risks. Very little discussion (and zero empathy) for a group that is at higher risk for abuse and discrimination. Being a woman can be hard, being a trans woman is frequently ten times harder. I believe as a society we should be judged by how we treat those with the least power/money/privilege.

I find it deeply depressing that instead of addressing the innumerable inequalities we face as women, so many are pouring their energy into creating limits on the lives of others.

@Labadabbado

Being a woman can be hard, being a trans woman is frequently ten times harder.

In what way, citing what sources? AFAIK 52 women in the UK have been murdered this year, and no TW have been for the past 4 years.

Empathy and compassion are fine, but it's not ok to simultaneously use your privilege to take advantage of protections meant for a protected group AND to insist you are the least privileged member of the subset you're identifying into.

@georgarina trans women are between 2 and 4 times more likely to be the victims of sexual assault-- exact numbers vary, but consistently FAR higher than other women. Somewhere between 50 - 66% will experience sexual violence in their lifetime

Somewhere between 50 - 66% will experience sexual violence in their lifetime

There is no way in hell the figures for actual women being sexually assaulted are even close to that low. Not a chance.

Do you know ANY women who’ve never been groped?

also citation please re your figure on 50% of transwomen being sexually assaulted!

So no stats or studies that show transitioned males to have a risk of committing sex crime at female levels… but a claim that thread is full of fearmongering about hypothetical risks.

While also being told transitioned males are a group that is at higher risk for abuse and discrimination. Being a woman can be hard, being a trans woman is frequently ten times harder.

It really is remarkable how male centred some posts on these boards can be.

The most detailed data comes from the US where they have been collecting data on trans victims since at least 2018 - the National crime victimisation survey is done by the US bureau of justice statistics. Reporting from 2019 shows a 4x rate of violence against trans women specifically vs cisgender women, and also that ~50% have been victims of sexual violence in their lifetime. Rates are far higher non-whites.

data is not published in the uk at that granularity but in 2020 ONS did share that trans (not further specified) are 2x times as likely to be victims of crime than cisgender

not great at links, but all of the above easily googled.

OK here goes.

BBC article here www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

Results of FOI - https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiVh9-R9575AhWwSUEAHUbUCxEQFnoECDMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.publishing.service.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachmentdata%2Ffile%2F954427%2FFOII200827019transgenderrprisonpopulationn-sexualloffendersbyy_offence.odt&usg=AOvVaw2iY3upRlOLgBX82vi3dTxA

139 prisoners, 63 for sexual offences so 45%

Question 1

For the March/April 2018 data collection, there was a total of 63 transgender offenders in prison custody sentenced for one or another offence of a sexual nature.

Question 2

At table 1 below, I have provided a breakdown of the numbers in each category of sexual offence for which the 63 offenders identified in the March/April 2018 collection exercise, were sentenced.

Table 1: Sexual offences recorded for transgender prisoners identified in the March/April 2018 data collection, who were sentenced with one or more sexual offence

Rape 31
Attempted rape ~
Possessing/distributing/making indecent photograph or pseudo-photograph of child 23
Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault 13
Causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity 11
Sexual activity with a child under 16 ~
Indecent assault or gross indecency 11
Other sexual offences(1) 10
Total number of sexual offences for which 63 transgender prisoners were sentenced 111

Total number of transgender prisoners sentenced for one or more sexual offence in each year 63
Total number of transgender prisoners in March/April of each year 139