Page 7 | How to refuse to share pronouns verbally

EthelbertaChickerel · 2022-06-23T09:18:23+00:00

I'm going to a course tomorrow, and have just received an email from the course leader. This includes her pronouns, and I'm now concerned we will all be asked to share them verbally when the day starts. If it is just writing them on badges, I will leave it blank, but I don't know how big the group is, and I am worried that if it is small, we will be asked to introduce ourselves and share pronouns. I'm fine with the introductions, just not with the pronouns. What is the best, but most polite, way to shut this down? I have paid quite a lot of money for this day and want to get as much out of it as possible, but am not happy to compromise my principles. TL:DR - I love the Mumsnet standard 'my pronouns are sex-based, like my oppression', and would be happy to put that in an email, but not sure about saying it. Does anyone have any alternatives?

moofolk · 23/06/2022 15:56

Or my fave 'I'm not bothered about pronouns but my adjectives are [hardcore / badass]'

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 23/06/2022 15:57

By the way I've been to events where what is your star sign is an icebreaker, I've answered. Tell you what though - one deeply relgious person did refuse to, on the basis that it went against their relgion because they didn't believe in star signs. And let me tell you, it was not the people answering who came across like the ideology fanatic.

Asking star signs is laughable. I would think anyone who did that was too silly to be taken seriously.

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 23/06/2022 15:57

*saveforthat
I'm still angry from a course I went to a couple of weeks ago where the ice breaker was to get up from your desk and stand next to your pronoun (hand made paper signs).

Was there paper and pens for people to write their own pronouns if the one they were looking for wasn't available?

I'd have been tempted to write "me/I/my" and stand next to it"*

I'd have been tempted to write "fuck/off" and stand next to it.

1000Pieces · 23/06/2022 16:01

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 14:02

@BootsAndRoots But 5 years ago people didn't use non-sex based pronouns. Now they do, so there is this new need to ask people for their pronouns.

Don't get me wrong, I don't care what people call me and I also don't believe in the gender stuff. But I don't think pronouns is offensive. We all use pronouns, the only difference is now some people use them in weird ways, so some people like to ask and make sure they don't get it wrong. But pronouns themselves have not suddenly become offensive.

I guess what you all want to do by refusing is resist the trend to using pronouns in weird ways. I don't think that me refusing to tell people I go by 'she' will stop others trying to identify out of their gender (and I also don't care about trying to stop them doing this, but I guess at least some of you here would like to).

You don't get to tell other people what they should say..
If people want to refer to me as "he" or "they", let them. It's no skin off my nose.

icelolly12 · 23/06/2022 16:09

"Hmmm I've not decided, can you come back to me later"

OhSister · 23/06/2022 16:17

Jane: Hi, I'm Jane. Really happy to be here with you all.

facilitator: 'and your pronouns?'

Jane: Oh. As you can probably tell, I'm a woman.

facilitator: 'so, is it she/her?'

Jane: Well, the words you use are up to you.

FemmeNatal · 23/06/2022 16:18

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 13:43

Hang on a minute, have I read this right - you guys don't use pronouns? So do your friends and family always refer to you as 'she' or 'her' they literally say your name every single time they talk about you?

Perhaps you don't want to answer because you are nonbinary and don't want to disclose this.

More likely, what you find offensive about it is the idea that the person can't tell what pronouns you go by from looking at you. Well, the reality is that they can't. The people talking to you do not know what you want to be called unless you tell them. It's not an offensive question, any more than asking you if you go by a nickname.

Presumably you want to use the occasion to posture about trans views. So you could always say "my pronouns are female, like my sex" ... but most people have pronouns, it's weird to refuse to disclose them.

also they almost certainly will not ask. loads of people have them in emails, but would not ask you.

Pronouns in English are based on a person’s sex, and yes, you can tell a person’s sex when you meet them.

Playing along with the idea that there is some sort of sexed “soul” that differs from a person’s sex is a religious view.

CriticalCondition · 23/06/2022 16:21

Playing along with the idea that there is some sort of sexed “soul” that differs from a person’s sex is a religious view.

I like this way of putting it very much.

newrubylane · 23/06/2022 16:22

If pushed I'd probably say 'I leave it up to others to refer to me however they feel is appropriate . It's worked fine up until now.'

AclowncalledAlice · 23/06/2022 16:27

"Hi I'm Alice. Please respect my right not to use pronouns and refer to me by my name. Thankyou"

Thejoyfulstar · 23/06/2022 16:30

'Em, I'm a woman, so....she/her?' while looking as if you have been asked the most ridiculous, stupid question with the most obvious answer. Look around the room as if you are wondering if it's some kind of joke. Extra points for confused shrug. Finish it off by whispering loudly, faux offended, to the person beside you, 'why did they ask me that, do I look like a man!?'

DotDotaDash · 23/06/2022 16:35

Pamela, shoe size 5, non practicing Christian, pescatarian, parent of two cockers and a goldfish …. Oh sorry guess you know me pretty well now hope that covers it, looking forward to learning about course subject

Biscuitsneeded · 23/06/2022 16:35

Say 'Hello, I'm Jane'. And stop there and look firmly at the next person. I think they would have to be pretty dreadfully woke to press you for them if it's obvious you've finished speaking and don't wish to specify pronouns. If they are daft enough to follow up, just say 'I'm female' pointedly.

Snog · 23/06/2022 16:41

Don't give any pronouns and if questioned say "I really don't mind" or "I can't commit to that" or "I find that intrusive/insensitive"

Ohsugarhoneyicetea · 23/06/2022 16:44

I haven't decided what my pronouns are yet, as Ive been working on my adjectives. Brilliant, witty, engaging, stunning and brave are the key words. Im mandating their use in any and all discussions about me where I am not present. And particularly in any kind of performance review. I'll be circulating a document later with the comprehensive list. Any deviations will be regarded as a hate crime.

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 16:49

Ok I see. Thanks to everyone for explaining what you dislike about it. This was very helpful -

I actually have no wish to upset anyone; I don't care if others wish to declare their pronouns. The problem is that I find it immensely upsetting to be prompted to mouth a belief I do not uphold. In fact, I find that belief damaging and dangerous, particularly to women.

@Braggiography I do think my assumptions were wrong. I thought that the resistance was due to not liking the gender ideology movement. But it seems to be that people on this thread think that you should not compel others to use certain pronouns, because as a matter of linguistics pronouns are for others to decice, and not the person that those pronouns refer to. I don't know about that, I think I'd be peeved if people were calling me 'they'. But it at least makes sense to me.

Also yes, to answer your question from earlier - I do think that people who think of themselves as pronounless are "weird"!

Oblomov22 · 23/06/2022 16:51

I'd think I'd say " Actually I don't find declaring my pronouns necessary. Please just use my name".

I like that. This pronoun bullshit really gets my goat.

AlisonDonut · 23/06/2022 17:05

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 16:49

Ok I see. Thanks to everyone for explaining what you dislike about it. This was very helpful -

I actually have no wish to upset anyone; I don't care if others wish to declare their pronouns. The problem is that I find it immensely upsetting to be prompted to mouth a belief I do not uphold. In fact, I find that belief damaging and dangerous, particularly to women.

@Braggiography I do think my assumptions were wrong. I thought that the resistance was due to not liking the gender ideology movement. But it seems to be that people on this thread think that you should not compel others to use certain pronouns, because as a matter of linguistics pronouns are for others to decice, and not the person that those pronouns refer to. I don't know about that, I think I'd be peeved if people were calling me 'they'. But it at least makes sense to me.

Also yes, to answer your question from earlier - I do think that people who think of themselves as pronounless are "weird"!

Also yes, to answer your question from earlier - I do think that people who think of themselves as pronounless are "weird"!

Pronouns are a power play.

It has been co-opted as a way of getting people [mainly women], to submit and call men 'she' or 'her'.

Those of us who refuse to play the game are not the weird ones.

MyneighbourisTotoro · 23/06/2022 17:08

I’d just say my name and nothing else, if K was pressed further I was say I don’t feel the need to use pronouns for myself.

FemmeNatal · 23/06/2022 17:11

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 16:49

Ok I see. Thanks to everyone for explaining what you dislike about it. This was very helpful -

I actually have no wish to upset anyone; I don't care if others wish to declare their pronouns. The problem is that I find it immensely upsetting to be prompted to mouth a belief I do not uphold. In fact, I find that belief damaging and dangerous, particularly to women.

@Braggiography I do think my assumptions were wrong. I thought that the resistance was due to not liking the gender ideology movement. But it seems to be that people on this thread think that you should not compel others to use certain pronouns, because as a matter of linguistics pronouns are for others to decice, and not the person that those pronouns refer to. I don't know about that, I think I'd be peeved if people were calling me 'they'. But it at least makes sense to me.

Also yes, to answer your question from earlier - I do think that people who think of themselves as pronounless are "weird"!

Im ny experience no-one who uses pronouns in their bio, or who announces them is worth giving the time of day to. It just isn;t a thing in normal society, it's for left-wing student politics, or for people trying to show how right-on they are.

It's in nearly every case a sugn that you need to disengage and walk away. Pull the job offer, rescind the party invitation stop the car and ask them to get out.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 23/06/2022 17:13

Those of us who refuse to play the game are not the weird ones.

Agreed. Havel's essay about the greengrocer and the sign is still relevant.

Let us take note: if the greengrocer had been instructed to display the slogan "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient;' he would not be nearly as indifferent to its semantics, even though the statement would reflect the truth.
…
In an era when metaphysical and existential certainties are in a state of crisis, when people are being uprooted and alienated and are losing their sense of what this world means, this ideology inevitably has a certain hypnotic charm. To wandering humankind it offers an immediately available home: all one has to do is accept it, and suddenly everything becomes clear once more, life takes on new meaning, and all mysteries, unanswered questions, anxiety, and loneliness vanish. Of course, one pays dearly for this low-rent home: the price is abdication of one’s own reason, conscience, and responsibility, for an essential aspect of this ideology is the consignment of reason and conscience to a higher authority.

hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-power-of-the-powerless-vaclav-havel-2011-12-23

Faffertea · 23/06/2022 17:16

Some new (to me) names on this thread although I appreciate regulars do name change.
Anyway, thought this seemed an aposite moment to share this excellent article for anyone who hasn’t seen it before.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

SerendipityJane · 23/06/2022 17:25

Just ask :

"What do you think I should put ?".

Last time anyone tried this on with me, I just changed them 3 times in the first hour, after telling them I hadn't decided yet. Yes, you need to be old, not very attractive and have ovaries of steel (like my DM).

The trick is to ask yourself "what would Jesus a man do ?"

similarminimer · 23/06/2022 17:30

Why is it she/her and they/them rather than she or they? The 2nd bit leads grammatically from the first. Or are there they/her who would like to be referred to a they, but anything they own is hers?

5zeds · 23/06/2022 17:31

The trick is to ask yourself "what would Jesus a man do ?"
Amen