Page 5 | How to refuse to share pronouns verbally

EthelbertaChickerel · 2022-06-23T09:18:23+00:00

I'm going to a course tomorrow, and have just received an email from the course leader. This includes her pronouns, and I'm now concerned we will all be asked to share them verbally when the day starts. If it is just writing them on badges, I will leave it blank, but I don't know how big the group is, and I am worried that if it is small, we will be asked to introduce ourselves and share pronouns. I'm fine with the introductions, just not with the pronouns. What is the best, but most polite, way to shut this down? I have paid quite a lot of money for this day and want to get as much out of it as possible, but am not happy to compromise my principles. TL:DR - I love the Mumsnet standard 'my pronouns are sex-based, like my oppression', and would be happy to put that in an email, but not sure about saying it. Does anyone have any alternatives?

Cherryblossoms85 · 23/06/2022 13:35

I haven't been asked, but I am planning on just saying that this is personal information I am not comfortable sharing. I was joking with my colleagues (whom I trust) the other day that since I'm quite bloky, I should just write "she/he"...ya know, the duality!

FusionChefGeoff · 23/06/2022 13:39

I'd say "hi I'm fusion" and in answer to any other follow up eg 'and your pronouns?' I'd stick with a simple 'no thanks', smile, and turn head to next person.

Keep it as minimal as possible

Braggiography · 23/06/2022 13:40

OverTheRubicon · 23/06/2022 13:23

Why be so difficult about it? Of course there's a lot of nonsense sometimes in these things, but if you've paid money for it there is no need to start right out by putting people's backs up.

If it helps but there are people including some gender-critical women who people might find hard to visually categorise and benefit from this.

Similarly, my family are from overseas and due to my name I have in the past been assumed to be a man when corresponding by email (not always as beneficial as you think, people can feel catfished), and saying 'Ms OTB' in a signoff has always felt weird, one side benefit of declaring pronouns has been avoiding this. Do I think it's necessary? No. Are there bigger battles to focus on? Absolutely yes.

Some of us are pedantic. Some of us find it enormously hard to lie, yes even white lies to keep the peace.

I find it exactly as uncomfortable as someone asking me to say 'amen' after a prayer when I'm not Christian. It feels to me not only dishonest but an insult to those who do believe.

I appreciate I tend to take these things too seriously, sometimes.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 23/06/2022 13:40

I agree that if you said you weren’t prepared to give your pronouns or whatever I would think you were an attention seeking PIA. Just don’t give them or say she/her. Don’t make it weird

///

See the other perspective is those who insist on pronouns are already making it weird. Some of us just can't be arsed joining in the circle of bollocks

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 13:43

Hang on a minute, have I read this right - you guys don't use pronouns? So do your friends and family always refer to you as 'she' or 'her' they literally say your name every single time they talk about you?

Perhaps you don't want to answer because you are nonbinary and don't want to disclose this.

More likely, what you find offensive about it is the idea that the person can't tell what pronouns you go by from looking at you. Well, the reality is that they can't. The people talking to you do not know what you want to be called unless you tell them. It's not an offensive question, any more than asking you if you go by a nickname.

Presumably you want to use the occasion to posture about trans views. So you could always say "my pronouns are female, like my sex" ... but most people have pronouns, it's weird to refuse to disclose them.

also they almost certainly will not ask. loads of people have them in emails, but would not ask you.

BootsAndRoots · 23/06/2022 13:44

If you just have to introduce yourself just say "my name is ..." and leave it at that. No need to say "my name is ... and I disagree with announcing pronouns".

If you are then asked for pronouns, get them to explain it and then answer "me/you".

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 13:44

damnit, that should say "never refer to you as she or her"

DogsAndGin · 23/06/2022 13:44

“it” and then see if anyone has the balls to actually refer to you as “it”

BootsAndRoots · 23/06/2022 13:46

@AgathaAllAlong What is your star sign? Everyone has a star sign, so what's yours? It's just the polite thing to state what your star sign is and is inclusive of those who believe in astrology.

ChairOfInvisibleStudies · 23/06/2022 13:51

If pressed, I'd go with "are you trying to force me to out myself?".

dolorsit · 23/06/2022 13:52

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 13:43

Hang on a minute, have I read this right - you guys don't use pronouns? So do your friends and family always refer to you as 'she' or 'her' they literally say your name every single time they talk about you?

Perhaps you don't want to answer because you are nonbinary and don't want to disclose this.

More likely, what you find offensive about it is the idea that the person can't tell what pronouns you go by from looking at you. Well, the reality is that they can't. The people talking to you do not know what you want to be called unless you tell them. It's not an offensive question, any more than asking you if you go by a nickname.

Presumably you want to use the occasion to posture about trans views. So you could always say "my pronouns are female, like my sex" ... but most people have pronouns, it's weird to refuse to disclose them.

also they almost certainly will not ask. loads of people have them in emails, but would not ask you.

It is very rare for me to hear myself referred to in my presence by third person pronouns. I actually find it quite jarring. Usually my name is used or I am addressed directly.

I am quite happy to admit that it may be generational (who's she, the cat's mother)

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 13:52

@BootsAndRoots It's different because no one refers to star signs in everyday conversation. I would never say "here ya go, ask the cancer to pass this pen to the leo" but I might say "ask him to pass it to her". I would say "where's Sara, I need to ask her a question". I would not say "where's sara, I need to ask gemini a question".

By the way I've been to events where what is your star sign is an icebreaker, I've answered. Tell you what though - one deeply relgious person did refuse to, on the basis that it went against their relgion because they didn't believe in star signs. And let me tell you, it was not the people answering who came across like the ideology fanatic...

GCRich · 23/06/2022 13:54

Braggiography · 23/06/2022 13:40

Some of us are pedantic. Some of us find it enormously hard to lie, yes even white lies to keep the peace.

I find it exactly as uncomfortable as someone asking me to say 'amen' after a prayer when I'm not Christian. It feels to me not only dishonest but an insult to those who do believe.

I appreciate I tend to take these things too seriously, sometimes.

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I don't think it's possible to take your own sense of right and wrong too seriously. The problem is people without a sense of right and wrong, or people who know thing are wrong and do them anyway.

Beamur · 23/06/2022 13:54

Preferred pronouns are a tool to communicate either non conforming in some way (which may or may not be obvious) or adherence to an ideology that believes in gender identity.
Not having a preferred pronoun means that you don't really care how people refer to you in your absence. Because you don't believe that gender identity is relevant to you and you're unconcerned by others assuming your gender and/or sex.

MagpiePi · 23/06/2022 13:55

Braggiography · 23/06/2022 13:32

It's precisely the same as asking me to declare my religion and starsign.

Exactly!

I don't agree with saying 'I'd prefer not to say'or something like that because it makes you sound all mysterious and closeted, as PPs have said, and also that it makes you sound like you believe in the gender woo.

GCRich · 23/06/2022 13:56

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 13:52

@BootsAndRoots It's different because no one refers to star signs in everyday conversation. I would never say "here ya go, ask the cancer to pass this pen to the leo" but I might say "ask him to pass it to her". I would say "where's Sara, I need to ask her a question". I would not say "where's sara, I need to ask gemini a question".

By the way I've been to events where what is your star sign is an icebreaker, I've answered. Tell you what though - one deeply relgious person did refuse to, on the basis that it went against their relgion because they didn't believe in star signs. And let me tell you, it was not the people answering who came across like the ideology fanatic...

Hea / then and Fuck / Off are my preferred pronouns if anyone insists on ditching the sex based pronouns all non-narcissists use. They work better in writing than verbally.

FrancescaContini · 23/06/2022 13:56

MonkeyPuddle · 23/06/2022 10:26

‘Hi I’m Monkey, use whatever pronouns you feel comfortable with as I would hate to compel the speech of others’ or I would maybe just flatly say ‘no’.

Yes

BootsAndRoots · 23/06/2022 13:57

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 13:52

@BootsAndRoots It's different because no one refers to star signs in everyday conversation. I would never say "here ya go, ask the cancer to pass this pen to the leo" but I might say "ask him to pass it to her". I would say "where's Sara, I need to ask her a question". I would not say "where's sara, I need to ask gemini a question".

By the way I've been to events where what is your star sign is an icebreaker, I've answered. Tell you what though - one deeply relgious person did refuse to, on the basis that it went against their relgion because they didn't believe in star signs. And let me tell you, it was not the people answering who came across like the ideology fanatic...

But if everyone announced their star signs then their usage would become more normalised and everyone would do this. This is about normalising a new ideology after all, and about making everyone feel OK for announcing their star sign.

I fail to see how the human race has had thousands of years of dialogue, but suddenly in the past 5 years no one is able to have a conversation with someone else without "knowing" someone's pronouns.

If you feel the need to ask for pronouns, ask yourself how you managed without this 5 years ago.

Braggiography · 23/06/2022 13:59

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 13:43

Hang on a minute, have I read this right - you guys don't use pronouns? So do your friends and family always refer to you as 'she' or 'her' they literally say your name every single time they talk about you?

Perhaps you don't want to answer because you are nonbinary and don't want to disclose this.

More likely, what you find offensive about it is the idea that the person can't tell what pronouns you go by from looking at you. Well, the reality is that they can't. The people talking to you do not know what you want to be called unless you tell them. It's not an offensive question, any more than asking you if you go by a nickname.

Presumably you want to use the occasion to posture about trans views. So you could always say "my pronouns are female, like my sex" ... but most people have pronouns, it's weird to refuse to disclose them.

also they almost certainly will not ask. loads of people have them in emails, but would not ask you.

No, your presumptions are completely wrong.

I struggle with this because it's hard to balance my own beliefs and moral judgements and decisions with being polite and conciliatory.

Were I to be wanting to posture about 'trans' issues I'd have far more to say.

I actually have no wish to upset anyone; I don't care if others wish to declare their pronouns. The problem is that I find it immensely upsetting to be prompted to mouth a belief I do not uphold. In fact, I find that belief damaging and dangerous, particularly to women.

how is it 'refusing to disclose' pronouns? It's not a state secret. Pronouns are based on other people's perceptions, they're not even mine to give or control.

Braggiography · 23/06/2022 14:01

MagpiePi · 23/06/2022 13:55

Exactly!

I don't agree with saying 'I'd prefer not to say'or something like that because it makes you sound all mysterious and closeted, as PPs have said, and also that it makes you sound like you believe in the gender woo.

Show quote history

Yes. But just as I have no wish to upset someone who is religious and believes that I ought to share that religion, I don't want to get into a big theological debate over whether or not I accept Jesus Christ as my personal saviour when we're just going round introducing ourselves.

I just don't really want to say 'amen'.

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2022 14:02

@BootsAndRoots But 5 years ago people didn't use non-sex based pronouns. Now they do, so there is this new need to ask people for their pronouns.

Don't get me wrong, I don't care what people call me and I also don't believe in the gender stuff. But I don't think pronouns is offensive. We all use pronouns, the only difference is now some people use them in weird ways, so some people like to ask and make sure they don't get it wrong. But pronouns themselves have not suddenly become offensive.

I guess what you all want to do by refusing is resist the trend to using pronouns in weird ways. I don't think that me refusing to tell people I go by 'she' will stop others trying to identify out of their gender (and I also don't care about trying to stop them doing this, but I guess at least some of you here would like to).

Braggiography · 23/06/2022 14:03

AgathaAllAlong, I'm curious, what would you recommend a gender atheist answer when the pronouns issue comes up?

'most people have pronouns, it's weird to refuse to disclose them.'

So - you acknowledge that some people do not have pronouns? Are they 'weird'?

Faffertea · 23/06/2022 14:05

I would say my name and if relevant my role/job title. If I was then asked what my pronouns are I would ask ‘why?’ and leave it to them to explain.

Braggiography · 23/06/2022 14:06

I guess what you all want to do by refusing is resist the trend to using pronouns in weird ways.

Again, no. You make a lot of assumptions, Agatha. They are not accurate. What I want to do is not to take part in a system that posits an innate 'gender identity'. Other people's choices have fuck all to do with me.

LetMeGoogleThat · 23/06/2022 14:10

Based on my sex......same as my oppression. Smile and walk away ☺