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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

284 replies

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/06/2022 15:14

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

OP posts:
MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 21:58

Datun · 03/06/2022 21:41

Just to be crystal clear HobgoblinGold, what benefit is there to women in making all their precious segregated spaces now mixed sex?

This is the question that ALL men who claim they are not men should be required to answer.

Popsicle33 · 03/06/2022 22:01

If a man has a cock he uses the men's toilet. A woman doesn't have a cock therefore uses the ladies toilet

Ameanstreakamilewide · 03/06/2022 22:03

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:22

Cis females and more so mtf experience men perpetrated violence. Your sample size is small and not at all controlled for biases.

GTFO with 'cis'.

ArcheryAnnie · 03/06/2022 22:07

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:38

@MrsTerryPratchett

I don't think a third space would help with reducing violence. People (mostly men) who perpetrate violence would just target different groups within this space. I think what is needed is education and examination of our own prejudices.

What do you do with women like me, who have already had quite a lot of education on the subject, who have thoroughly examines their own prejudices, and who still come to the conclusion that transwomen should not be in women's loos?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:10

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 21:58

This is the question that ALL men who claim they are not men should be required to answer.

I meant 'previous' not 'precious', but it still works.

What's in it for the women HobgoblinGold?

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Perhaps you don't understand it? It means that as soon as a man cross the threshold, it's no longer a women's space. It's gone.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 03/06/2022 22:12

The problem with your sentence hob is that it's nonsense.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:14

@Datun

I am aware what the EHRC has stated. The opinion I have reflects my own.

I have no issue of a TW using female toilets.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:18

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

Just so we're clear - so me using Muslims instead of men is nonsense?

IstayedForTheFeminism · 03/06/2022 22:19

No Muslim has ever entered a woman's space. Muslims destroy women's spaces as their leading foot starts to cross the threshold.

Do you see the problem with the totality of this statement?

Muslim isn't the opposite of woman though. So it's not the same at all.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 03/06/2022 22:21

Yes. A Muslim woman entering a women's space has no effect. A Muslim man on the other hand...

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:23

@IstayedForTheFeminism

I've not chosen Muslim because its opposite. You could literally put in any group. I find that in excluding TW from female loos is fueled by fear that violence may be perpetrated by said TW because there were AMAB. Not all men perpetuate violence and therefore should not be treated as such. Exactly the same would be said for Muslims/black people/Jewish people/German people... The list could go on.

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:23

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:18

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

Just so we're clear - so me using Muslims instead of men is nonsense?

Muslim is not a sex segregated term.

Excluding men from women's spaces is perfectly legitimate.

nepeta · 03/06/2022 22:24

Forcing 'cis' on people who don't believe in an abstract gender identity (which is used to define 'cis' as it's assumed to be based on people's abstract identity just happening to match their sex) is not inclusive.

It's like some religious sect calling outsiders 'heathens' and then demanding that all those outsiders accept being called 'heathens' just because representatives of the sect say that all 'heathen' means is someone outside the sect.

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:24

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:23

@IstayedForTheFeminism

I've not chosen Muslim because its opposite. You could literally put in any group. I find that in excluding TW from female loos is fueled by fear that violence may be perpetrated by said TW because there were AMAB. Not all men perpetuate violence and therefore should not be treated as such. Exactly the same would be said for Muslims/black people/Jewish people/German people... The list could go on.

So to be clear, you don't think that women have any right to sex segregation, at all? Is that correct?

HRTQueen · 03/06/2022 22:27

A third space is needed

it’s not down to women to make everyone else feel safe

I don’t want to be around males in some circumstances as I want to feel safe as I’m more vulnerable. Putting a dress on and wearing make up and feeling like a women does not change the fact the person is male and males are far more violent than females

I don’t have to address prejudice that is a fact

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:29

@datun

Yes - men should not enter Womens spaces. Nor would they want to.

‘I’ feel TW are not men though and as such can use female loos. I understand however this view is not shared widely on this group. I do feel however that fear (albeit understandable) perpetuates a growing frustration, anger, logger-heads towards the trans community. On the flip, some trans members then label some women as terfs. So in the end what progress is actually made?

IstayedForTheFeminism · 03/06/2022 22:29

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:23

@IstayedForTheFeminism

I've not chosen Muslim because its opposite. You could literally put in any group. I find that in excluding TW from female loos is fueled by fear that violence may be perpetrated by said TW because there were AMAB. Not all men perpetuate violence and therefore should not be treated as such. Exactly the same would be said for Muslims/black people/Jewish people/German people... The list could go on.

But the second you let non women in then it's no longer a 'women's space'.
Letting Muslim women/black women/,Jewish women/ German women in doesn't stop it being a women's space.

Not all men perpetuate violence and therefore should not be treated as such so should we let all men in no matter how they identify? Because NAMALT?

AMAB no one is assigned anything. Sex is observed and noted.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:31

@Datun

Women, including TW, should be able to use female loos.

How would one actually stop TW from using female looks anyway? How would you honestly know?

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:34

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:29

@datun

Yes - men should not enter Womens spaces. Nor would they want to.

‘I’ feel TW are not men though and as such can use female loos. I understand however this view is not shared widely on this group. I do feel however that fear (albeit understandable) perpetuates a growing frustration, anger, logger-heads towards the trans community. On the flip, some trans members then label some women as terfs. So in the end what progress is actually made?

What progress? What is there to progress if your premise is based on fantasy?

Women and girls are to be denied any privacy, or space away from men, when they're vulnerable because you appear to think that human beings can change sex. Or that sex isn't real. Or its a feeling.

It's a complete departure from reality.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:34

Night night everyone.

Voice0fReason · 03/06/2022 22:35

There are numerous men who are more vulnerable than others.
Disabled men, gay men, ethnic minorities etc.
These would all be safer from male violence in the men's toilets if we allowed them into the women's.
However, we obviously wouldn't do that because it would be inappropriate. It would put women at risk and it would be unfair for women's dignity.

Women are not shields for vulnerable men.

GrinAndVomit · 03/06/2022 22:37

Oh that got embarrassing
Night @HobgoblinGold

Datun · 03/06/2022 22:38

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 22:31

@Datun

Women, including TW, should be able to use female loos.

How would one actually stop TW from using female looks anyway? How would you honestly know?

This is nonsense. Cant you tell men from women?

And I must say that TRAs have a terribly dim view of transwomen. Why would they be entering a space that's not applicable to them? Where women have said it's segregated by sex?

Why would they knowingly violate that?

In one breath you're claiming that they would violate women's privacy and boundaries, and in the other moaning that it's awful to think anything bad of them!

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