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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

284 replies

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/06/2022 15:14

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 03/06/2022 18:42

But isn't it the case that trans women can use female bathrooms unaided as they have for decades? They do it all the time without us knowing.

When I've been in the ladies' loos and a male has entered, regardless of how the person was dressed or presented themself, I have generally quietly left as quickly as possible. Without n washing my hands. The only times that this happened and I remained in the toilets was when I'd gone in with dd. Then I would stay, facing the cubicles and avoiding eye-contact with the male. Other women present would make eye-contact with me and each other, but none of us ever said anything above a murmur. Different once outside the toilets!

So the male may have interpreted our silence to indicate that we had not clocked a male in our space or that we did not mind.

When actually the silence was unease, fear, anger.

How do we know that male's intentions? Men who do not want to deliberately distress women do not voluntarily enter the women's toilets. Why should we trust any male who chooses to enter the women's toilets?

But, no, that male observes our silence and claims it means that we're fine about it.

nepeta · 03/06/2022 19:07

Interesting thread. I have a few thoughts on it:

a) Surveys asking people if they have experienced a particular act of violence depend only on the respondent's interpretation about what took place, and there is no external way of checking if the response is true or not.

In larger samples most of this doesn't matter, because the individual variations are washed out in the averaging process.

But it does matter if the people participating in the survey consist of different cultural communities with somewhat different language and definitions of words and different views on what constitutes violence. It might even matter when we interpret answers by men and women, at least in some more conservative communities.

Police reports don't suffer from that problem, but they obviously suffer from other problems, so a combination of data sources would ideally be needed. I'd also like to see more in-depth open-ended investigations to tease out what all kinds of people mean with such words as sexual harassment or verbal violence etc.

b) The Williams Institute link gives a summary of this study (both are linked to separately in this thread). The abstract of the study itself does not include some of the things the Williams Institute chose to report, such as this:
Transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization (86.1 and 107.5 per 1,000 people, respectively) than cisgender women and men (23.7 and 19.8 per 1,000 people, respectively).

That's because this particular finding is more likely to be produced by chance than the level the authors set as the cutting point in their study. So the Williams Institute shouldn't have reported that bit without also reporting about its likely statistical non-significance.

c) The statistics on violence against transgender people are different for the most extreme kind of violence than other kinds of violence: Homicide rates in countries outside South America.

A few sources:

This study (which I believe has one transgender researcher) shows that the risk of becoming a homicide victim was lower for transgender people than the rest in US between 2010 and 2014. This site reports on some UK data, and this one gives some rough calculations for the US.

So why are the reported overall violence figures against transgender people so high, yet the homicide rates are not, outside South America? This clearly needs good research.

All violence is unacceptable, and transgender people should be free of assaults and violence, just as everyone else should be free of those. But considering the possible solutions to the problem requires much better and more comparable data collection and analysis, and the likely solution really is not to demand only one other demographic to change its behaviour (women) when the violence is overwhelmingly carried out by another demographic (some men).

d) My last comment on this, I swear:

It's always good to remember that ideally we wish to compare like with like in these kinds of studies, i.e., we should compare a transgender person to someone who is otherwise the same except for gender identity, lives the same kind of life, takes the same types of risk and so on. Only then could we be absolutely certain that the cause of the differences we find can be attributed to the difference in gender identity (or rather the performance of this vs. one's sex)

One reason why men are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women is that women take more mitigating actions (not going out alone late at night, avoiding certain places and forms of behaviour).

It's possible that some of the findings in this specific field are also partly driven by differences in other kinds of variables which correlate with being transgender. Asking more questions about where the reported violence happened (work, home, leisure activities), and who the alleged perpetrators were (strangers, sexual partners, spouses etc.) would cast further light on this.

GCRich · 03/06/2022 19:08

I've been trying to think things through logically.

Presumably a TW wishing to use a female toilet is doing it for simple preference, or their own comfort, privacy and safety, or for validation, or for nefarious reasons.

Putting aside nefarious reasons, anyone who supports TW in women's toilets is implicitly saying -

The preferences of TW need to be prioritized over the preferences of women.

or

The comfort, privacy and safety of TW needs to be prioritized over the comfort, privacy and safety of women.

or

The validation of TW needs to be prioritized over the preferences, comfort, privacy and safety of women, even if this invalidates women by stopping them having rights as a group.

Then, just to put the icing on the cake of my argument, we have to remember that without a clear, definable and observable way of identifying the group known as TW we are still left in a position where -

TWs preference to be in a space for women and TW cannot be guaranteed because we have no idea if some of the people claiming to be TW are men.

TWs comfort, privacy and safety away from men cannot be guaranteed because we have no idea if some of the people claiming to be TW are men.

TWs validation ain't happening because the place is a place for TW, women and men who claim to be trans women.

And that's all without arguing that TW are men anyway.

JellySaurus · 03/06/2022 19:30

It's always good to remember that ideally we wish to compare like with like in these kinds of studies, i.e., we should compare a transgender person to someone who is otherwise the same except for gender identity, lives the same kind of life, takes the same types of risk and so on. Only then could we be absolutely certain that the cause of the differences we find can be attributed to the difference in gender identity (or rather the performance of this vs. one's sex)

Who should the comparator be?

According to gender ideologues, the comparator for a transwoman with the PC of gender reassignment is a woman without the PC of gender reassignment.

According to gender critical people, the comparator for a Tw (ie a male with the PC of gender reassignment) is a man (ie a male without the PC of gender reassignment).

TribunalBingo · 03/06/2022 19:55

What a terribly frustrating thread! Women are not support animals for men. We are not human shields for men who may be vulnerable to violence by other men. We don't exist solely to make men happy/feel safe/validated/insert other reason. We are adult human beings with our own hopes and dreams, fears, worries and opinions, and rich internal lives.

Humans can never change sex. Men can never be women, no matter how they feel or dress or how desperately they might want it. And no men should be in women's spaces, ever.

tobee · 03/06/2022 20:19

TribunalBingo · 03/06/2022 19:55

What a terribly frustrating thread! Women are not support animals for men. We are not human shields for men who may be vulnerable to violence by other men. We don't exist solely to make men happy/feel safe/validated/insert other reason. We are adult human beings with our own hopes and dreams, fears, worries and opinions, and rich internal lives.

Humans can never change sex. Men can never be women, no matter how they feel or dress or how desperately they might want it. And no men should be in women's spaces, ever.

This, loud and clear

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 20:26

JellySaurus · 03/06/2022 19:30

It's always good to remember that ideally we wish to compare like with like in these kinds of studies, i.e., we should compare a transgender person to someone who is otherwise the same except for gender identity, lives the same kind of life, takes the same types of risk and so on. Only then could we be absolutely certain that the cause of the differences we find can be attributed to the difference in gender identity (or rather the performance of this vs. one's sex)

Who should the comparator be?

According to gender ideologues, the comparator for a transwoman with the PC of gender reassignment is a woman without the PC of gender reassignment.

According to gender critical people, the comparator for a Tw (ie a male with the PC of gender reassignment) is a man (ie a male without the PC of gender reassignment).

The law says that without a GRC, any man who claims he is not a man has to be compared with any other man in a situation that may involve discrimination. In this circumstance, such a man has the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment". That is, this means that the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment" acknowledges that this is nothing to do with the protected characteristic of sex; ie: the protected characteristic of GR means very specifically that this PC is not about the fictional concept of "sex change".

The law also says that a man with a GRC can be compared with a female only in some circumstances that may relate to sex discrimination. The exceptions written in the Equality Act 2010 limit the access of any man with a GRC to a claim of sex discrimination.

Nellodee · 03/06/2022 20:26

For me, the only logical positions are either single sex, or mixed sex. Single gender is nonsensical. I disagree with mixed sex, but it's at least internally cohesive.

Sex may be complicated, most on this board have at least a basic understanding that it's down to SRY expression. However, I'm pretty certain that if you've ever ejaculated or menstruated, then it's not going to be complicated for you personally in the slightest. There's a lot of people making a pretty huge case out of a very few edge cases that have fuck all to do with being trans or not.

SantiMakesMeLaugh · 03/06/2022 20:28

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:02

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I am very privelaged to have had the therapy I have had. I am also very privileged to have met/know lots of caring and loving men and trans people.

There is another way to look at things.

Prevalence of violence/sexual assault etc… is the same in men and transwomen.

Seeing that 800% of women have been sexually assaulted, I am going to go on a limp and say that a big proportion of men have sexually assaulted women. (I doubt that a very small minority of let’s say 1% of men could have affected 80% of women).
That also means we need to assume that a big proportion of transwomen are likely to be violent/sexually assault women.

Of course, in the middle of all that you’ll find nice men and lovely transwomen. But the issue isn’t that you will find some nice men and transwomen or that one is privileged to have met a lot of them.

The issue is about protecting women as a group from predatory people, in this case men and yes transwomen (because the rate of violence is the same)
Its not a sex issue or a gender issue or a trans issue. It’s an issue about protecting one group from the violence of another.

JellySaurus · 03/06/2022 20:42

Important to be clear about the comparator, MaudeYoung, because most organisations who took training from transactivist organisations have been persuaded that the comparator for a transwoman is a woman.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:43

@nepeta - thank-you for such a considered response. As I understand it though - as people can self identify this may skew police statistics? (I'm sure I read about this happening in the UK?)

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:46

@GCRich

Putting aside nefarious reasons, anyone who supports TW in women's toilets is implicitly saying -

The preferences of TW need to be prioritized over the preferences of women.

I don't think this - if a TW wants to use a female toilet then they can do. This for me is not about prioritizing there needs over a woman's, but recognizing that they have a right to do so as a woman.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 03/06/2022 20:47

Yes, stonewall have trained the police to be as they put it “ahead of the law” which means many police forces (not all) record crime by what the (alleged) perpetrator identifies their gender as

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:51

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

I struggle with this because surely this skew of data means that it makes it harder to grasp what types of crimes are happening and therefore establishing reflective policies/servics to mitigate/prevent/reduce will always be made harder?

throwinthetowel · 03/06/2022 20:51

Men'sn

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 03/06/2022 20:52

The thing is you believe TW are women

I do not.

TW are men & do not belong in womens spaces. If they are so disrespectful & disinterested in womens feelings to use womens spaces knowing they don’t belong then it’s not exactly a ringing endorsement of them is it?

it’s not my job or any womens job to be a support human to a bloke with issues however strongly felt those issues are

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 03/06/2022 20:52

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:51

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

I struggle with this because surely this skew of data means that it makes it harder to grasp what types of crimes are happening and therefore establishing reflective policies/servics to mitigate/prevent/reduce will always be made harder?

Well quite!!! It’s in no one’s interest to do so and yet here we are!!

JacquelineCarlyle · 03/06/2022 21:02

AlisonDonut · 03/06/2022 15:19

I've not heard of any man beating up a man who identified as a woman in any men's toilets. It's all a huge scam.

This!

OldCrone · 03/06/2022 21:08

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:46

@GCRich

Putting aside nefarious reasons, anyone who supports TW in women's toilets is implicitly saying -

The preferences of TW need to be prioritized over the preferences of women.

I don't think this - if a TW wants to use a female toilet then they can do. This for me is not about prioritizing there needs over a woman's, but recognizing that they have a right to do so as a woman.

What makes you believe that a TW is a woman?

Mochudubh · 03/06/2022 21:11

GCRich · 03/06/2022 16:03

No man has ever entered a woman's space. Men destroy women's spaces as their leading foot starts to cross the threshold.

I've never thought of it like that before but of course, as soon as a a man enters a space, it is no longer a women only space. Thanks GCR.

GrinAndVomit · 03/06/2022 21:16

@HobgoblinGold
What is the shared characteristic that makes both me (a biological adult human female) and a transwoman women?

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 21:20

JellySaurus · 03/06/2022 20:42

Important to be clear about the comparator, MaudeYoung, because most organisations who took training from transactivist organisations have been persuaded that the comparator for a transwoman is a woman.

Such people will lose their cases in court when corrected by a Judge.

Any man who claims he is not a man and also does not have a GRC is legally a male / man as far as the Equality Act 2010 is concerned.

Any man who claims he is not a man and who does have a GRC has very limited access to any claim for sex discrimination where a comparator would be female as far as the Equality Act 2010 is concerned.

Men who claim they are not men know this and it is why such men never make claims in any court. They know they can never win against the Equality Act 2010 when it comes to Sex Discrimination.

This, in itself, means that such men know they are men when it comes to reality.

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 21:25

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:46

@GCRich

Putting aside nefarious reasons, anyone who supports TW in women's toilets is implicitly saying -

The preferences of TW need to be prioritized over the preferences of women.

I don't think this - if a TW wants to use a female toilet then they can do. This for me is not about prioritizing there needs over a woman's, but recognizing that they have a right to do so as a woman.

What right do they have to claim womanhood - a feeling in their head? That cannot trump biological reality. It is not your place to give away other women's right to privacy in single sex spaces.

You claim to have birthed 2 children, you didn't do this because of a feeling you have inside you, you gestated and birthed 2 children because of your female biology, as distinct from male biology.
And before you chime in with the 'gotcha' of not all women can have children - yes, that is true, but ONLY women have children. ONLY women menstruate, etc. These don't occur because we feel like women, they occur because of our biology.

Datun · 03/06/2022 21:39

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 20:46

@GCRich

Putting aside nefarious reasons, anyone who supports TW in women's toilets is implicitly saying -

The preferences of TW need to be prioritized over the preferences of women.

I don't think this - if a TW wants to use a female toilet then they can do. This for me is not about prioritizing there needs over a woman's, but recognizing that they have a right to do so as a woman.

They don't tho. You're just making that up. The. EHRC has been quite explicit.

www.politics.co.uk/news-in-brief/ehrc-says-trans-women-can-be-barred-from-female-only-toilets/

The Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) has today published new guidance that says trans women can be barred from female-only toilets and changing rooms.

You say you're not prioritising men over women, and then go ahead and do exactly that !

Datun · 03/06/2022 21:41

Just to be crystal clear HobgoblinGold, what benefit is there to women in making all their precious segregated spaces now mixed sex?