Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

[Allthegoodnamesarechosen]

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

If a TW is so convincing they pass, then they can use the ladies (can't stop them frankly). But that is a tiny tiny fraction of TW as per stonewall description. Most won't pass - they should use the mens

If a TW is so convincing they pass, then they can use the ladies (can't stop them frankly).

Disagree; lots of TW are convinced they pass but don't. And their own basic human decency should stop them - it's in oddly short supply.

@NancyDrawed

Yes I would.

You're right - in my head. Transwomen represent those with dusphoria and all the psychological turmoil that goes with it.

I do have an issue with how sex and gender identity seems to be grouped together. I do think this inherently.makes it much harder to protect those who are most vulnerable.

I'd say you think very differently from the overwhelming majority of women because it seems that you may disregard the needs of women who adhere to religions which have rules about women associating with men is certain circumstances; you seem to disregard women who have been subjected to psychological and / or physical damage from men; you seem to disregard any woman who has any need for personal privacy, a sense of human dignity or any personal sense of safety.

That does not mean you think like a man; it means you think very differently from the overwhelming majority of women who, instinctively, have empathy for their fellow women in the face of the threat that is known to them from predatory men.

Why is that man's need for validation more important than women's need for privacy and dignity away from males?

Also, women have mooted the idea of a third spaces many times, and we are told we are hateful and bigoted for doing so. Because it's not really about safety of transwomen, it's that they want the validation of being seen as female in a female space.

Would you please, for just one nanosecond, think what difference it makes to women how men are classified in their spaces?

Really, really try and explain what's in it for women. For just a second can you drag your focus away from men and explain the benefit to the women whose spaces they are?

I guess it's not about male and femaleness in this capacity, but just being kind?

Why can't the TW be kind to the women who are uncomfortable with a man being in the women's toilets?

Yes.
Men should educate themselves that not all males present in traditional and stereotypically male clothing but they still should be in the men’s toilets.
That’s what you mean, right?

Surely you can’t mean women ignore a millennia of oppression and abuse at the hands of males, to ensure males feel safe and validated by encroaching in female only spaces.

Because a man who has gone through the work to actually use a woman's space as he feels like a woman...

What work does a person have to go through to use a woman's space.

Do women have to go through this work as well? If not, why not?

HobgoblinGold. To get a broader idea of what you're defending, why don't you read some experiences straight from the coal face as it were.

Transwidows Voices is easily Googlable, and there are numerous threads on here with transwidows in the title.

Or 'children of transitioners' is another one.

These are authentic, real life experiences.

The 'work'? Saying I feel like a woman? That 'work'? Or are you gatekeeping 'woman'?

"Because a man who has gone through the work to actually use a woman's space as he feels like a woman"

What work specifically? Do you mean genital surgery? How would you ever know? Or do you mean appearance? It's totally unworkable, is yet again focusing on the men, and not the women who are disturbed by them and doesn't have the slightest correlation to intent.

Well there are men and boys who feel unsafe in men's loos. The problem is (some) men, why is it down to women to solve man problems?

I'm making dinner.

So will be buggering off for a while ( this may be a relive for some?).

I don't profess to have all the answers. I know I got defensive a few times. Apologies for this. I do want to genuinely understand peoples views. Thbkuou for those who took the time to respond. I will be refkecting on all opinions.

But isn't it the case that trans women can use female bathrooms unaided as they have for decades? They do it all the time without us knowing.

No one is asking them their sex when they walk in.

So what changed and what's actually making it difficult now? Using public female toilets I just assume there are TW in there that I don't notice?

But why do you assume that I feel this respect etc isn't awarded to me anyway?

It's not actually about just you. I know I don't feel respected.

Then you and I are pretty much of the same opinion.

I want to protect people who are vulnerable, but my focus now has to be on protecting the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls.

Unfortunately I think that the push to open up the definition of trans to mean 'everyone is who they say they are' along with removing transgenderism as a medical (mental health / psychological) condition has actually done a huge amount of harm to those who just want to quietly live their lives in a way that feels comfortable to them. And I say this as someone with a mental health issue myself, that has required medication in the past and may well do in the future.

I wish I had the answer, but I don't.

This is getting so old, to be honest.

Women are not service humans, provided in a never-ending stream, to validate the feelings of men.

Do you not get that?

Do you understand that it's women and girls being accessed which is the validation, here? The actual space is irrelevant. If all the women moved to another space, the focus would go to the second space. The presence of the women in that space is the crucial part.

You genuinely think that women and girls are a resource for men. It's coming across in your male centric posts.

The only solution to 'safety for all', is a third space.

Not providing women as a tool for male validation.

She is, however, unable to refute her own finding, that even male transsexuals who are undergoing a process of medical transition, continue to criminally offend at the same level as other males.

Exactly. Note that she hasn't ever said the study was misleading, just blamed other women for what they did with it.

"But isn't it the case that trans women can use female bathrooms unaided as they have for decades? They do it all the time without us knowing."

Women usually know when a man of any description is violating their single-sex space against their consent. As I said above on this thread, silence on the part of women does not mean acquiescence, it usually means women are frightened because of the potential consequence of male aggression.

I see we've had 'sex isn't binary - It's more complicated than that'.

If you want a laugh, have a look at Dr Emma Hilton replying to such comments on Twitter. It's very rare that the OP on such comments attempts to refute her extremely well explained evidence but on the very rare occasions that they come back with that risible Scientific American blog post, she is able to give even more evidence which shows very clearly the binary nature of the human species.

I've never seen them attempt it after the second time. Because there is no evidence to back up their statements.

HobgoblinGold, decent, kind men know that in some situations women can be frightened by seeing a man they don’t know. So, for example, when out late after dark they don’t walk too closely behind a lone female or they cross to the other side of the road. Those men know they mean no harm but understand that someone who doesn’t know them can’t be sure of that. Don’t you think that it would be kind of trans women to accept that third spaces are a good solution to a similar situation?

As I'm sure you know, "be kind" (in its incarnation as a 2020s catchphrase) always but always means 'be kind to me' or at least 'be kind to those people with whom my sympathies principally lie'. and where there are possible conflicts of interest, "be kind" means 'be kind to the above and everyone else'.

@HobgoblinGold I used to feel like you. I wanted also to be kind, but I'm afraid that when you're 'kind' (i.e. accommodating) it seems like it's not enough.

There are already enough MtF individuals who have caused harm to women and girls as a result of this societal need to 'be kind' and Stonewall's insistence that cross dressing AGP men who get a sexual thrill out of cuckooing women's spaces and now get classified as having the same vulnerability as those diagnosed with debilitating gender dysphoria is the point at which I refuse to 'be kind' any more.

The goal posts shifted a while ago and I'm afraid I'm one of many many women who now chooses to say 'enough'.