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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

284 replies

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/06/2022 15:14

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

OP posts:
SoManyQuestionsHere · 05/06/2022 21:56

I have absolutely no problem believing that some trans women (a.k.a. "people who read 'male' but present 'feminine'") are at a heightened risk of violence in all male environments. Frankly, it makes a certain amount of sense:

Women (the female, cunty types) would suffer from misogyny, true. We would also "benefit" from benevolent sexism - that thing that boys are taught: "we don't hit girls!".

This doesn't mean that violence against women isn't real (it is).

It's just: I can see how "presenting feminine" but, at the same time, not displaying any of the markers that halfway decent men have been taught to take as "don't fight - gentlemen don't do that!" could conceivably mark you out as a more "acceptable" victim.

It's just: none of that is on women. It's still a "male violence" issue! And, as such, it's still on men to resolve, not on us!

viques · 07/06/2022 12:56

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:43

amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/trans-people-twice-as-likely-to-be-victims-of-in-england-and-wales

I could carry on posting articles about what I'm writing about. It is there if you look. But I do wonder whether there are women who just choose to ignore it because it goes against there own prejudices and discrimination.

Now I understand this. I would feel shocked if I saw a trans woman in a female only space but I would actively try and question my own reaction on this and try to empathise with this other 'woman'. Consider how far a journey and how difficult it would be for this very human being to be sharing the space with me. This other woman is also vulnerable, so why should I deny this space to them? Where is the sister solidarity in this?

And having read that article it states that the types of crime are not identified. Which is a shame . I guess that murder by a partner isn’t one of them, because that appears to be a crime almost entirely perpetrated on women by their male partners. Three a week seems to be the average.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 14/06/2022 22:51

Zemmiphobic · 04/06/2022 19:15

I was assaulted in men's toilets in 2019 prior to surgery/GRC. There were 2 men, who were obviously friends, who clocked me.

As I went into a cubicle, they started talking about me. Slurs, both homophobic and transphobic. As I left the cubicle and washed my hands I noticed one of them was blocking my exit and as I walked out to leave I was subjected to more insults.

The man blocking the entrance wouldn't let me past, and as I tried to squeeze past him he punched me on the side of the head, knocking me into the wall. As I tried to right myself he punched me again, this time on the side of the face, cutting my lip and (as it later turned out, loosening one of my teeth).

I fell and he walked out with his friend laughing. His friend decided to kick me in the kidney area for good measure as he then walked out.

Both were caught on CCTV after leaving the toilets. Both were arrested, charged, and got away with community service and a fine.

After that I never used male toilets again because I was too terrified to. I started using disabled facilities.

You'll probably say this was male-on-male violence or this has nothing to do with women because it's toxic male masculinity, or it's a men's problem. But this happened to me just because I'm trans. I just needed to pee.

I'm so sorry to hear this. That's an awful experience and I can see why you feel like you want to use a third space. My sister was raped by men who were in the women's toilets. As transwomen continue with male pattern offending, I think it's easy to see why, despite your experience (and I don't believe you are the only one), most women still feel any male (trans or not) should not be in the female toilet.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 14/06/2022 23:05

Not all men perpetuate violence and therefore should not be treated as such

Separate spaces for women does not suggest that all men perpetuate violence. Why do you think it does?

Women, including TW, should be able to use female loos.

But then what's the purpose of a 'female' loo? The vast majority of women have nothing in common with a TW that they don't with any other male. So this appears to be an argument for abolishing all single-sex spaces. Can you tell us why you think we need 'female only' loos if there is no common characteristic (other than being human) that the people who use those loos share?

BoredofthisCrap7 · 14/06/2022 23:27

"Women, including TW, should be able to use female loos".

Well, TW are men.

If you read that quote back and substitute your "TW" with "men", you will see how ridiculous it sounds.
Because it is.

Men are not a subset of women. Effeminate men are not a subset of women. Men who have been attacked by other men are not a subset of women. Gay men are not a subset of women.
It is not up to women to solve male violence or to make room for fearful men in their own spaces.
And just because you yourself don't care, it doesn't mean that there are not many many more women who DO.

JellySaurus · 14/06/2022 23:34

Trans women are more likely than there cos female counterparts to experience violence, more likely to experience mental health issues, suicide to name a few.

Probably because Tw are male, and males are more likely than females to experience violence, more likely to experience mental health issues, suicide to name a few.

A problem not solved by designating women as service-humans for males, but by encouraging men to access mental health services, and by reduction of opportunities for men to perpetrate violence.

Circumferences · 15/06/2022 12:55

While zemmiphobic has my utmost sympathy, I agree male violence is widespread and a human life crisis. People need protecting. All people.

It's also important to recognise how women and girls are put at far greater risk when men are permitted into women's spaces.

I am sympathetic to transwomen who experience abuse.

My sympathy lies equally with the school girl violently raped by a male trans student in the girl's bathroom who's school covered it up and accused her dad of transphobia.

With the woman raped in the woman's ward in hospital by a male trans patient who's hospital covered it up saying "no males were present so a rape couldn't have happened".

With the mentally ill woman who was raped in her women's unit by a male trans patient, where staff covered it up accusing the woman of being "mad".

With all the women currently being abused, and raped by males in women's prisons everywhere, which is happening, and with any woman or girl anywhere who ever has to accept competing against men in their own sporting category, ever, anywhere.

Destroying women's rights is not the answer. It's not the solution. We've tried it, we've seen the results.

Trans rights organisations need to back off and change track, stop with the lying and stealth. Transwomen have their own obvious needs but you need to leave women and our rights out of it.

Sliceofpi · 15/06/2022 14:25

I think a third space would definitely help women, men can then start subdividing their own spaces and sorting out problems of male violence among themselves instead of leaving it to women.

Conflictedunicorn · 15/06/2022 17:19

Trans women are more likely than there cos female counterparts to experience violence, more likely to experience mental health issues, suicide to name a few.

and this is women’s problem because?

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