Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

[Allthegoodnamesarechosen]

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

In fact, the ‘just want to pee’ tactic is also very indicative of the complete lack of knowledge that these males have of what goes on in the female toilets.

Anyone who had no option but to walk with their push chair or pram to the high street and get stocked on nappies, and other items that then had to be hung on that pram or push chair, while going to the toilet to deal with heavy and flooding periods knows that it is not just about ‘wanting to pee’. There is no way to use the toilet without the door jammed open.

Same with the plenty of other ‘not peeing’ moments in life such as dealing with clothes covered in baby puke, or tomato sauce requiring some attempt to dry clothes under hand dryers exposing body parts you don’t want to expose to any male, regardless of the seeming magic some posters like to tell us they believe about these people ‘just being another woman’.

No thanks. Bad enough dealing with the humiliation that other females see you in those vulnerable positions. At least there is some comfort in knowing a % of those women understand. No male can understand in any but very superficial depth.

Female toilets are not ‘just for peeing’. That is actually the most obvious falsehood in use of that phrase.

Man alive. She made me want to scream.
I wonder if we'll ever get past the cognitive dissonance.

I've just read through the whole thread and I'm equal parts irritated by hobgoblin and worried that she feels compelled to overcome her 'prejudice'.
That Kool Aid must taste great.

That in built 'prejudice' keeps women on their toes. How many times have any of us been around a potentially volatile man and thought 'uh oh', and quickly extricated ourselves from their presence.

And as a PP wisely pointed out yesterday, she clearly knows and acknowledges that a trans woman is a man.

Gosh, just when you think you've seen it all someone comes along and suggests that 'Muslim' is an antonym to 'woman'

Other signs of seeming cognitive dissonance: 'As a cis female I do have concerns about trans women using female only spaces but I also accept that this is mostly due to my own prejudices and fear about men'. Hobgoblin seems to suggest that rational risk assessment is prejudice now.

'Yes - men should not enter Womens spaces. Nor would they want to.' Apparently men do not want to enter women's spaces, ever. Thanks Hobgoblin, good to know, I feel much safer now.

Sorry Hob, I'm feeling sad for you, as survivor of abuse you're probably constantly wondering if your physiological responses are correct or are hyper vigilance due to trauma. They are correct, every time. They are just sharper than most people's due to your lived experience. Your fear of men is your brain trying to keep you safe, it is never a prejudice. Listen to it, it will keep you safe in the future. And please read 'The gift of fear' by Gavin de Becker.

I don't think Hobgoblin is coming back to the thread, but I would be interested to know if she has ever thought about why her instinct seems to be to prioritise men's feelings over women's feelings?

These men (who may or may not have gender identity issues) still have male biology and always will. Why are they more important than the women who don't want them in our spaces? Have you ever though about why you unquestioningly defend men's wants over women's needs?

Hobgoblin, I just saw this video by Arty Morty and I think it might help you to understand where the women on this thread are coming from.

"There is no platonic ideal transwoman"

Hi everyone - I'm here. I have read through everything. Just give me time to digest it and reflect it all. Thank you for taking the time.

@LK1972

Sorry Hob, I'm feeling sad for you, as survivor of abuse you're probably constantly wondering if your physiological responses are correct or are hyper vigilance due to trauma. They are correct, every time. They are just sharper than most people's due to your lived experience. Your fear of men is your brain trying to keep you safe, it is never a prejudice. Listen to it, it will keep you safe in the future. And please read 'The gift of fear' by Gavin de Becker.

Thank you for above 🌸

If a Muslim enters a female only space...

Fuck me 🤦🏾‍♀️

The only reason I'm not reporting that comment is because I think it help for people to see who you are.

@TheWeeDonkey

You obviously never read the run up to that comment.

You mean this one hobgoblin ?

I think that was the stage where you should have read back, deleted, put the wine glass down and gone to bed.

It was a terrible analogy, it made no sense and was deeply racist and offensive. You wanna do that there are plenty of other spaces on MN for your casual racism. As it is you're wrong, once a man enters a female only space it stops being a female only space by the fact that the man is there.
The only problem I see is that you don't have a problem with comparing Muslim women with male born people.

Hi.

I'd like you to read this:

Males are simultaneously very dangerous [to males who identify as women in male spaces] and absolutely safe [to females in female spaces].

How is it possible to be both?

HobgoblinGold

I am curious as to how you feel that you should be able to mis-gender people with the use of "cis" yet mis-gendering a trans person is 'literal violence'.

@TheWeeDonkey

It's interesting that got deleted. Because that was the whole point in the fact it was highlighting just how utterly discriminative the originally comment was. The only difference? It was about trans women, I simply substituted the ‘group’.

You can’t substitute the group and it still make a salient point though.

It ends up being complete rubbish.

For example,

If a group of disabled people created a space where they could meet up with one another and discuss their struggles and make plans to overcome them, and an able bodied person started attending and joining in with those conversations, it would no longer be a safe space for disabled people to meet and organise.

Your analogy is :

If a group of disabled people created a space where they could meet up with one another and discuss their struggles and make plans to overcome them, and a gay person (or black person, or woman, or any other person from a different oppressed group) started attending and joining in with those conversations, it would no longer be a safe space for disabled people to meet and organise.

It doesn’t make sense because there are gay disabled people, black disabled people, female disabled people etc.

The only shared defining feature needed to attend their group would be the fact they are disabled.

Similarly, Muslim women are female so it would still be a female only space if they entered it. The shared defining feature needed to enter a female space would be that they are female. Religion, race, sexuality, anything else is irrelevant.

I think that posters who use race and religion to support their analogies simply cannot see their own fail in logic.

It is clear to us and to readers though. Because we have seen it before. We have debunked it before.

It is as false an analogy now as it was the thousands of times we have seen it.

muslim females = females

transitioned males = still male

If you choose not to answer the questions asked of you to detail specifically how transitioned males have become females, ask yourself why?

is it because you know that it is impossible? Or is it that you know that the paltry evidence based on more falsity and emotional manipulation that you allowed yourself to be convinced by cannot stand even basic scrutiny?

Hence the offensive false equivalence of using Muslim women the way they were used here.

The only difference? It was about trans women, I simply substituted the ‘group’.

Are you really, truly struggling with this?

You seem to have forgotten that 50% of Muslims are female.

Obviously Muslims can be welcomed into a female only space and have it still be a female only space. If they’re female.

I can’t believe you genuinely don’t understand this. I’ve noticed before that belief in trans ideology seems to impair people’s reasoning ability. But this is very simple.

The only difference? It was about trans women, I simply substituted the ‘group’.

For absolute clarity. You didn’t ‘simply substitute the ‘group’.

You tried to swap out a group of males and use a group containing females as a ‘gotcha’.

Please tell us what other group of females are excluded from female toilets?

I was assaulted in men's toilets in 2019 prior to surgery/GRC. There were 2 men, who were obviously friends, who clocked me.

As I went into a cubicle, they started talking about me. Slurs, both homophobic and transphobic. As I left the cubicle and washed my hands I noticed one of them was blocking my exit and as I walked out to leave I was subjected to more insults.

The man blocking the entrance wouldn't let me past, and as I tried to squeeze past him he punched me on the side of the head, knocking me into the wall. As I tried to right myself he punched me again, this time on the side of the face, cutting my lip and (as it later turned out, loosening one of my teeth).

I fell and he walked out with his friend laughing. His friend decided to kick me in the kidney area for good measure as he then walked out.

Both were caught on CCTV after leaving the toilets. Both were arrested, charged, and got away with community service and a fine.

After that I never used male toilets again because I was too terrified to. I started using disabled facilities.

You'll probably say this was male-on-male violence or this has nothing to do with women because it's toxic male masculinity, or it's a men's problem. But this happened to me just because I'm trans. I just needed to pee.

And you have our utmost sympathy @Zemmiphobic.

However that does not mean you, or any other trans identifying male, should be granted access to the woman's facilities.

Women are not emotional support humans for gender dysphoric males.

I'm very sorry that happened to you @Zemmiphobic - it really shouldn't have. But are correct that the issue is toxic masculinity and the problem is with males and male violence. It doesn't mean that anyone who has (or ever had) a penis should use the ladies toilets.

I'd advocate for a 3rd space - people with penises (whether now or in the past) should never ever have access to women's spaces, including toilets, refuges, changing rooms, prisons, women's sports etc etc.

Why is men's violence women's problem to solve?

I too am sorry that happened to you Zemmi. It was lucky there was evidence to secure a prosecution, however lightly they got off.
As other people have said, it is male on male and women are not responsible for fixing it. Please also consider the disabled who have their hard won spaces turned into accessible toilets.

@Zemmiphobic , I’m sorry about what you’ve experienced.

And you are right too. It IS about toxic masculinity and men, as a group, using violence just for the fun of it. It is about them also knowing they can get away with murder (as seen with the ought sentence they had - I supposed at least they got caught).

So yes transpeople need to be protected from that. No doubt about it.
Its just nit ok to do so whilst putting Women safety at risk because some men will have no issue abusing the system.
It needs to be a solution that protects EVERYONE.

@Zemmiphobic it is horrible what you went through and it absolutely should not happen.
Allowing anyone to self ID into the women's toilets means that those violent men could follow you into the women's and assault you and any women in there so that is clearly not the solution.
3rd spaces are the only thing that offer safety and dignity for everyone.

I'm sorry, this is just not true.

People can have elevated responses due to trauma that are inaccurate and debilitating.

Even for people who have not had a trauma, our responses are not always accurate. They need to be subjected to our judgement.