Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

[Allthegoodnamesarechosen]

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

I am not a subset of my sex. Cis is at best a sign of the speaker's gullibility. At worst it's a slur.

I'm sure most people reading this are already aware, but to me, it's always useful to get the crunch.

Women and girls not allowed any place away from men, if those men say so. And we are told to swallow utter fantasy as a justification.

Just to note @HobgoblinGold
A better analogy would be:

If a white person entered a place that had been deigned a safe space for ethnic minorities, it would no longer be a safe space for ethnic minorities.

If an able bodied person entered a safe space designed only for disabled people, it would no longer be a safe space for disabled only people.

If a female entered a safe space for transwomen, it would no longer be a safe space for transwomen.

All these oppressed groups have genuine reasons for wanting to meet up with one another to the exclusion of those not part of that oppressed group.

You cannot simply interchange these oppressed groups with one another as they do not have the same oppressors.

It was the “if a Muslim enters a female only space it is no longer a female only space” stuff that actually made me wince.
35 years of “be kind” has really done a number on me.
I can’t help but start to feel sorry for them when they start making fools of themselves.

So why are the reported overall violence figures against transgender people so high, yet the homicide rates are not, outside South America? This clearly needs good research

The homicide rate for transwomen in South America is an order of magnitude lower than other men and considerably lower than women. The numbers may still look high but that is because of the shockingly high murder rate for all demographics there.

All these oppressed groups...

In what way are transwomen an oppressed group?

I think it is important to remember exactly what is required in order for a man to become a bonefide stonewall definition approved transwoman...

The man must decide "I am a woman in this instance for this purpose, that may all change in two minutes but just now I am a woman".

That is it - no heartsearching, no medication, no surgery, no change of cloths, no shaving the beard, no commitment to think the same way in five minutes time, no need to tell anyone, no change of name. Just a passing feeling is enough.

That just sounds like you are telling us to 'be kind'?

What are you on about?

If I saw a transwoman in a female only space such as a toilet, I wouldn’t feel anything to do with “sister solidarity” (which doesn’t exist by the way - just look at Mumsnet! - what a patronising male myth). I would instead feel very aware that I was in a confined space with a person much more physically powerful than me who has the physical equipment to rape and beat me and who belongs to a sex defined by its aggression, and their clothes and very presence in that location tell me that they are a psychologically unwell person with self-hate issues who is happy to break social norms for their own benefit. And I would be out of there like a shot.

Because when women are in a confined space out of sight with a mentally unwell man, things often go badly for the woman.

Interesting that in all this worrying about transwomen’s safety in male loos there is no discussion of the safety of young boys, who from the age of around 8 are expected to use male public toilets alone, and sadly sexual assault and even rape are regular occurances. Logically if transwomen need to be in the female loos, so do all young males. But then again teenage boys also carry out a lot of sexual assault crimes, as indeed do transwomen. Gets complicated eh.

Maybe we should just get some shit hot facial recognition technology and a competent police force who care about crimes against women and children 🤔

If you feel that Tw should be allowed to use women's facilities, then you can welcome them into these facilities when you are the only woman using them. You can give consent for yourself.

You cannot give consent for other women. If any women do not consent to share women's spaces with males, you do not get to override them just because you don't mind.

Yes quite!

A female Muslim, yes. A male Muslim, no. Trying to shoehorn the word Muslim in, in order to just create a general feeling of inequality!

And this is what these people end up doing. They end up talking claptrap, or defending rapists in women's prisons, sex offenders in women's spas and men who are happy to violate women's boundaries. And no one can tell anyone's sex apparently. With the justifications ranging from the nonsensical to the downright unhinged.

Because there is no justification.

The bottom line is, just do it, because we say so.

I see Hobgoblin has now reached the ultimate end point of these discussions, which always come down to the mantra that «men are women». There is no logical argument for men to use women’s spaces, so having failed to make any, in the face of many logical challenges, Hobgoblin resorts to untruth.

Hobgoblin, you acknowledged earlier that you felt uncomfortable when you saw an obvious man in a woman’s space. How can you bear the cognitive dissonance? The very fact that you have that instinctive response means that you know perfectly well that this person is not female and shouldn’t be there. I can’t really understand how you can wobble on the edge of that knowledge, but then return to lying to yourself.

Still, each to his own. I guess I used to ignore my own screaming conscience as well, but now I’ve stopped and will not go back, because ignoring that is what causes you to let abusers into your life.

Transwomen face their own kind of oppression. Completely separate and different to female oppression of course.

Males making decisions for females on what is best for them

nothing new there

its called male entitlement no matter how you present yourself or feel

I’ feel TW are not men though and as such can use female loos.

Why? Just because they say so?

‘I’ feel TW are not men though

Can you please be very specific in the ways transitioned males are not men please?

I have been reading this thread and I cannot quite work out what you believe changes.

I find it ironic that HobgoblinGold has brought up Muslims as there will be many Muslim women and girls who will be excluded from their own single sex spaces should they become mixed sex which is what HobgoblinGold is promoting.

How would one actually stop TW from using female loos anyway? How would you honestly know?

Is anyone tired of seeing this tired old trope? Usually deployed as the ultimate gotcha?

How would you honestly know?

This is the thin wedge tactic.

So because in the tiny number of cases where a male has either had puberty blockers, had full feminization surgery (incredibly rare in the UK), voice training on top of larynx surgery, and naturally small hands and feet plus a way to disguise their gait, females should abandon all hope of having female only single sex spaces.

hob if you lack the ability to correctly sex someone in the huge majority of times you might encounter a transitioned male, that is on you. And if you are merely repeating what many transitioned males wish to be true but is not, that is also on you.

My sight is poor at distance, all I can see is movement and not details of clothes, hair etc. I am 99% accurate in working out whether it is a male or female by the time they come into focus.

Even up close, unless they have really had all the feminisation surgery available, the proportions of their face is often a tell.

But you are only talking from your own experience, obviously and I am sorry to hear you cannot tell the difference. It is an intuitive tool that females have and very useful.

How would one actually stop TW from using female loos anyway

And this old chestnut. I thought the trans activist community had moved on from using it. Because it was rather transphobic to say this group would knowingly use the female toilets despite understanding that by doing so they caused some women distress. Because it showed how disrespectful some transitioned males were.

Please do tell us hob how women have ‘policed’ their female toilets in the relatively short time we have had them. (Because it is only a short time, look up ‘urinary leash.’)

How have females and society in general done this?

Then please also tell us why transitioned males will be so disrespectful as to know they are not welcomed into a female single sex space and yet still use that space?

It is a great thing that we know there are some transitioned males who understand this and who respect this by using other alternatives. Which transitioned males are you speaking for here?

I thought that too dial.

@HobgoblinGold

*Women, including TW, should be able to use female loos.

How would one actually stop TW from using female looks anyway? How would you honestly know?*

Please take a minute to watch this (from 3.33 to 4.29)

I have no doubt that the man/TW in the clip thought he was indistinguishable from women. If I was in an enclosed space and this man/TW came in, I would feel alarmed. I have posted this because I think a really good point is made - that when some of these men are 'dressed' and put their make up on, they really can't see themselves as male - but the rest of us do. The silence from women in any supposed female only spaces that they entered would be taken as proof of passing, when nothing could be further from the truth.

HobgoblinGold you are making a false comparison with race segregation and sex segregation. Historically, race segregation happened because white people (the dominant group) enforced it, in an attempt to uphold supremacy.

Single sex spaces for women are not comparable - the are not in place because of discrimination where we keep men out because of prejudice. These spaces (including bathrooms, changing rooms, prisons, sports teams) have been fought for by women to allow privacy, dignity and safety and fairness away from men (the dominant group).
This is because while we know that of course most men are not predators, we also know that it is predominantly men who offend against women, not the other way around. We know this, statistically it is something like 98% of sex offenders are men, and it's not some random coincidence.

If you remove single sex spaces, it is women and girls who lose out every time. There are now men in women's prisons (these are male sex offenders with full male genitalia), men in women's sports teams (winning medals and trophies that should have belonged to women) and on and on. Men in women's rape crisis centres, where women who have already been victimised by men are now expected to welcome men into this space or be called hateful. Can you really not see the problems here?

Such a pity Nig Here’s tweets each linking to the masturbatory transitioned male porn while in female toilets videos.

It would seem appropriate to be able to link them here.

However, suffice to say instead that there is a reason that it is a fast growing porn category.

And it surely dispels the myth that these males ‘just want to pee’.

If you remove single sex spaces, it is women and girls who lose out every time. There are now men in women's prisons (these are male sex offenders with full male genitalia), men in women's sports teams (winning medals and trophies that should have belonged to women) and on and on. Men in women's rape crisis centres, where women who have already been victimised by men are now expected to welcome men into this space or be called hateful. Can you really not see the problems here?

It will never stop being wrong. True male domination.

I'm sorry Hob has gone. I wanted to ask her, since she brought up the subject of Muslims, if Muslim women should be compelled to allow a transwoman into the women's prayer area at a mosque.