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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

284 replies

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/06/2022 15:14

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

OP posts:
SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am · 03/06/2022 15:49

The being assaulted under the influence of alcohol/drugs has issues too - I've only skimmed, but the ages of the groups were different - 8 years different in average age between trans/NB and those without those identities, which is massive - I was a very different person at 27 vs. 35

They split up by various aspects, but don't sex disaggregate (and I don't think I'm going out on a limb to suggest that straight women are assaulted more than straight men)

They don't seem to have controlled by alcohol and drug usage - ie. if the trans group are partying students vs. 35 year old parents either.

Basically I find it bloody suspicious that they didn't, since these are glaringly obvious things. It's what I would do if I were looking to get a certain result from the data though...

Triotriotrio · 03/06/2022 15:49

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:31

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen

I wouldn't conduct such a 'study'.

If you search using Google scholar or the many other academic platforms you will be able to find multiple studies discussing this very issue.

Trans women are more likely than there cos female counterparts to experience violence, more likely to experience mental health issues, suicide to name a few.

May be they should stay men then....

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 03/06/2022 15:50

But I do wonder whether there are women who just choose to ignore it because it goes against there own prejudices and discrimination.

I wonder how much benefit you might derive from some reflection about your engagement that mention studies but post press releases or news articles.

You might wish to reflect upon whether you harbour or manifest prejudices about FWR posters that prevent you from engaging in a useful manner that might allow you to explore issues that disturb you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/06/2022 15:51

would feel shocked if I saw a trans woman in a female only space but I would actively try and question my own reaction on this and try to empathise with this other 'woman'. Consider how far a journey and how difficult it would be for this very human being to be sharing the space with me. This other woman is also vulnerable, so why should I deny this space to them? Where is the sister solidarity in this?

They're male. They are violating women's boundaries by their presence in spaces intended for female people's privacy and dignity.

FlappyCats · 03/06/2022 15:53

I have reported the use of the word "cis" I find it hateful and repugnant. It seeks to declassify women from their sex group and thus is a misogynistic undermining of women's struggles.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 15:53

*www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00224499.2021.1912692(

Sex disaggregated for trans people but not for "cis" people. Finds that "AFAB" trans people are more likely to have been sexually exploited under the influence of drugs than "AMAB" trans people. However it lumps non trans identified women and men together under the "cisgender" umbrella.

It doesn't mention it in that report (of course), but the respondents to that survey are 66% male, so if you lump the whole "cisgender" group together without disaggregating by sex, of course the risk of sexual violence to that group is very low.

I do wonder why they didn't sex disaggregate the results for cisgender people... nah, of course I don't wonder. It's clear that finding that women are the most at-risk group however they identify wouldn't have been helpful from a propaganda

terryleather · 03/06/2022 15:54

Now I understand this. I would feel shocked if I saw a trans woman in a female only space but I would actively try and question my own reaction on this and try to empathise with this other 'woman'. Consider how far a journey and how difficult it would be for this very human being to be sharing the space with me. This other woman is also vulnerable, so why should I deny this space to them? Where is the sister solidarity in this?

"Oh won't somebody think of the menz!!!" 🙄

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 15:54

..perspective.

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/06/2022 15:56

Now I understand this. I would feel shocked if I saw a trans woman in a female only space but I would actively try and question my own reaction on this and try to empathise with this other 'woman'. Consider how far a journey and how difficult it would be for this very human being to be sharing the space with me. This other woman is also vulnerable, so why should I deny this space to them? Where is the sister solidarity in this?

Do you extend the sisterhood to refuges, prisons and shelters? Because I don't actually care very much about toilets for myself. i do care about prisons for my sisters.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:57

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

I could carry on - there's loads of scientific articles.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:58

@terryleather

I have no idea what you're referring too. Menz?

GCRich · 03/06/2022 15:59

HobgoblinGold · Today 15:43

Where is the sister solidarity in this?

Not from the TW that is for sure. When I have been online and asked I have been utterly SHOCKED at how TWs sense of womanhood is 100% personal and literally nothing to do with some sense of sesterhood with women.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:00

@MrsTerryPratchett

Yes I would extend it. BUT I think the fact that people can self identify is a problem. I do believe there needs to be more rigour in when an individual can legally change sex and therefore be legally allowed to use sex specific spaces.

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 16:00

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:58

@terryleather

I have no idea what you're referring too. Menz?

terryleather is pointing out that you clearly seems to have more sympathy with men who invade women's spaces than women who object to them being there.

These are men, no matter how they dress or feel or what they call themselves, they are and always will be men. And we don't want any men in women's spaces. Not even the ones who think they are so special the rules don't apply to them.

It's always women who are expected to compromise, move over, budge up when men's feelings are in play.

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 16:02

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:00

@MrsTerryPratchett

Yes I would extend it. BUT I think the fact that people can self identify is a problem. I do believe there needs to be more rigour in when an individual can legally change sex and therefore be legally allowed to use sex specific spaces.

Single sex spaces cease to exist if they admit both men and women.

GCRich · 03/06/2022 16:02

@HobgoblinGold

You seem to know a lot about the TRA position and are much more educated that most TRAs (I don;t want to stereotype but a lot of them come across as violent and unhinged and not very bright). Perhaps you could contribute to this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556955-the-stonewall-position-justified-using-facts-logic-reason-and-compassion

FWIW I used to be all "TWAW, be kind" - my position switched when I started hearing good gender critical arguments and realised that the opposite side of the #nodebate has absolutely #noargument, which kinda made #nodebate make sense

GCRich · 03/06/2022 16:03

No man has ever entered a woman's space. Men destroy women's spaces as their leading foot starts to cross the threshold.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 16:04

Transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization (86.1 and 107.5 per 1000 persons, respectively) than did cisgender women (23.7 per 1000 persons; OR= 3.88; 90% CI = 0, 8.55)

that's from the full text of the Williams Institute "study" as linked in the thread by EmbarassingHadrosaurus.

basically there is no measurable effect because the sample size is too low. No wonder the Williams institute Though tbh that's a little surprising, I'd expect trans people to be younger and more concentrated in urban areas so you'd think there would be some increased vulnerability to crime based on demographics. Perhaps the fact that trans people are nearly all white cancels it out.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:05

@Roseglen84

I don't feel it's a solidarity with men but with people transitioning into something that feels more right for them. Why should I be angry about this?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/06/2022 16:09

people transitioning into something that feels more right for them

What does that even mean?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:12

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

But all are about the topic. This area is massively under researched which I feel only fuels the fear.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 16:12

basically there is no measurable effect because the sample size is too low. No wonder the Williams institute

Ugh what is with my typing today. No wonder the Williams Institute don't host the "study" on their website and expect people to email their communications team if they want to read it. It's really fucking dodgy behaviour putting out a press release with figures that they want the press to quote, backed up by a study that, it turns out, does not back up the figures.

But entirely typical. Hobgoblin are you able to see how much propaganda you've fallen for? Trans activist organisations like the Williams Institute wouldn't be pulling stunts like this if they actually had facts on their side.

SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am · 03/06/2022 16:13

Did you read any of the links? Because the top 5 of them contribute to this discussion - Intimate partner violence, Domestic violence - not public loos. And I don't have time to go further since you just seem to be chucking out links in the hopes that we won't read them and realise they're irrelevant to the discussion.