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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

284 replies

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/06/2022 15:14

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

OP posts:
AlisonDonut · 03/06/2022 15:19

I've not heard of any man beating up a man who identified as a woman in any men's toilets. It's all a huge scam.

Foilball · 03/06/2022 15:19

What do you think some men do when they feel threatened?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:21

The empirical evidence refutes this.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:22

Cis females and more so mtf experience men perpetrated violence. Your sample size is small and not at all controlled for biases.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 15:24

The empirical evidence refutes this.

Does it now. Please provide the empirical evidence.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/06/2022 15:28

Cis females

Women. No qualifier needed. There are not two sexes of female, males are excluded by default.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/06/2022 15:28

No hobgoblin, I made it very clear I wasn’t claiming it was a super survey, I would be interested though if you could repeat my small scale biased survey and report your own results.

OP posts:
PastMyBestBeforeDate · 03/06/2022 15:28

females and more so mtf experience men perpetrated violence
More so? Really? Any evidence with verified statistics?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:28

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

There are so many research articles available. Above is just one. But I fear whatever I post will be refuted for one reason or another.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:31

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen

I wouldn't conduct such a 'study'.

If you search using Google scholar or the many other academic platforms you will be able to find multiple studies discussing this very issue.

Trans women are more likely than there cos female counterparts to experience violence, more likely to experience mental health issues, suicide to name a few.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:34

As a cis female I do have concerns about trans women using female only spaces but I also accept that this is mostly due to my own prejudices and fear about men (understandably).

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/06/2022 15:35

I don't doubt at all that MTF are at risk in men's spaces. FFS my goth mates used to get beaten up regularly for wearing make-up! I don't think times have changed that much.

But gay men are too, men with MH or addiction issues, men who are just not 'fitting' in some way. We can't organise spaces for 'tough manly men men' and 'everyone else'. Because a lot of 'everyone else' is also a threat to women. We can keep women safer by making spaces single sex. If a third space is needed, then it's needed. I'll sign a petition.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:38

@MrsTerryPratchett

I don't think a third space would help with reducing violence. People (mostly men) who perpetrate violence would just target different groups within this space. I think what is needed is education and examination of our own prejudices.

MangyInseam · 03/06/2022 15:39

Well there are plenty of transwomen who use men's facilities and never have a problem.

I think it's obvious that there are potential situations a person could encounter where that might not seem like such a good idea. I've been to toilets, without any men around, where I felt unsafe because of the women in there with me, things like that can happen and we do what seems best when we encounter things like that. Transwomen also might find they are in danger in women's toilets from people who see them as a threat there which in some ways is a more likely way for people to feel in that situation.

But overall today, in most western countries, most of the time, I don't think transwomen are in danger in men's toilets.

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 15:39

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:28

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

There are so many research articles available. Above is just one. But I fear whatever I post will be refuted for one reason or another.

This is an LGBT++++++ website that is US based, so not an unbiased legal site. Also, that article has no data references - where is this data from?

If true (and I am sceptical) it is likely those figures are from South America, where many transwomen are sex workers, and therefore more likely to be victims of violence.

TibetanTerrah · 03/06/2022 15:40

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:22

Cis females and more so mtf experience men perpetrated violence. Your sample size is small and not at all controlled for biases.

Cis Envy

why is the focus on the victims and not the perpetrators. Male violence is the problem, everywhere, towards every section of society.

But, like in the US in an effort to reduce school shootings, the solution being suggested is just one door to the school, manned by a security guard.

Instead of, you know, gun control.

It seems to be universally accepted that men will be violent and unpredictable, and also accepted that women since the dawn of time have rolled over to their own detriment because of these men.

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this, it's hopeless. The patriarchy has convinced us to, to use another gun analogy, treat the bullet wound after its too late, rather than take the bullets out of the fucking gun in the first place. Cos its a man's right to be a thug if he chooses.

Everyone has the right to feel safe. But you can bet that if any individual is threatened, harassed, assaulted or intimidated, chances are it'll be by a man.

ChagSameachDoreen · 03/06/2022 15:40

Trans women are more likely than there cos [sic] female counterparts to experience violence, more likely to experience mental health issues, suicide to name a few.

You can't possibly believe this to be true. What statistics are you using here?

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 15:40

There are so many research articles available

Please link to one then. That is a press release. The report itself is not available to the public or published in a journal so it's impossible to verify. Keeping their methodology secret is weird as hell and doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their analysis.
See williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/ncvs-trans-victimization/

Aside, not directed at the person I'm responding to - is this as unusual as I think it is? It's pretty normal for charities and activist organisations to publish statistical reports that aren't peer reviewed but I have never before seen a situation where an organisation publish a press release based on a report they've commissioned and don't make the full report available to the public.

SantiMakesMeLaugh · 03/06/2022 15:41

@HobgoblinGold id like to see the exact questions that were asked in that survey.

so what is defined as a hate crime?
What is defined as being victimised etc….

So for example, I suspect no women will see themselves as the victim of a hate crime whereas transpeople will. Which is totally normal. Gay people, trans people, people of colour are victim of hate crimes. Not women as a group iyswim.

Now I’m not saying that transpeople are not attacked etc… I’m sure they are.
But I’m saying that seeing the number of women who sexually assaulted (around 80% of women by the time we are 25yo), it doesn’t seem to somehow represent the reality of women. It might represent the reality of transpeople - it will depend a lot on what questions were asked and how people analyse their experience. Eg women being catcalled might not be mentioned by women because it’s no ‘normal’ etc…. whereas a transwoman might find that extremely aggressive.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 03/06/2022 15:41

If you search using Google scholar or the many other academic platforms you will be able to find multiple studies discussing this very issue.

I wonder if you searched MN if you would find discussion of some of those studies and publications. There has been a discussion of the press release that you cite with some spin off (including a link to the actual publication).

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4374585-lbc-emily-thornbeery

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 03/06/2022 15:42

How do the surveys they've analysed define violence and where does it reference 'men' perpetrators?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:43

amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/trans-people-twice-as-likely-to-be-victims-of-in-england-and-wales

I could carry on posting articles about what I'm writing about. It is there if you look. But I do wonder whether there are women who just choose to ignore it because it goes against there own prejudices and discrimination.

Now I understand this. I would feel shocked if I saw a trans woman in a female only space but I would actively try and question my own reaction on this and try to empathise with this other 'woman'. Consider how far a journey and how difficult it would be for this very human being to be sharing the space with me. This other woman is also vulnerable, so why should I deny this space to them? Where is the sister solidarity in this?

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/06/2022 15:45

I think what is needed is education and examination of our own prejudices.

You've mentioned prejudice twice. Both in relation to yourself and in relation to men. I agree that men need to sort their shit out. The answer to male violence isn't an end to prejudice, it's an end to violence.

I am not prejudiced against men. I've done a good risk assessment and decided that being vulnerable around men I don't know isn't safe enough for me. I also don't chum the water and swim in Australia. Most sharks won't bite me but it's not prejudice to assume one might. What with having been bitten a few times.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/06/2022 15:46

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 15:38

@MrsTerryPratchett

I don't think a third space would help with reducing violence. People (mostly men) who perpetrate violence would just target different groups within this space. I think what is needed is education and examination of our own prejudices.

I completely agree. Men need to stop excluding / assaulting men who do not meet some imaginary standard of manliness. TW / gay men /male goths should be absolutely fine to use men's toilets.

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