Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

[Allthegoodnamesarechosen]

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

I don't feel TW are doing this

Of course they are.

If the category of "women" is redefined from "adult human females" to also include "men who imagine they feel like a woman feels" then that is literally redefining women as a group based on the imaginings of men.

Put this string into a search engine.

site:mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights swedish study transwomen men

The string returns results about the comparative level of violence or offending such as:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3761578-Long-Term-Follow-Up-of-Transsexual-Persons-Undergoing-Sex-Reassignment-Surgery-Cohort-Study-in-Sweden-2011-clarification-by-lead-researcher-Dr-Cecilia-Dhejne-2015

Similarly this string, as per people's preferences, returns discussion threads about US and UK statistics. This is more likely to return specific ones about violence against women.

site:mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights rate offending transwomen men

For an analysis of several studies, it might be worth looking through the written evidence that was requested by the HoC Women and Equalities Committee. Evidence and Data on Trans Women’s Offending Rates
Submitted by Professor Rosa Freedman, Professor Kathleen Stock, and Professor Alice Sullivan

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

@Ereshkigalangcleg

When I first heard about cis I initially felt angry. However I now realise that I don't believe in sex being binary. I feel it's far more complex than what we currently know.

I am happy for you that you do not feel threatened by the presence of men. But many of us do - so whose feelings trump whose?

I'm all for third spaces so that everyone can be accommodated.

You could use the mixed sex space (not meant to be outing or othering as it would be open to both sexes regardless of gender identity) and I'll use the space for women. Men who are uncomfortable in mixed sex spaces can use the men's. Everyone's happy - TW don't have to use the men's and women aren't forced to have males in their spaces.

Transwomen are not the same as women, they are transwomen.

There is no such thing as "feeling like a woman" as it is not quantifiable.

Feeling like a woman is completely unique.

If "feeling like a woman" is completely unique to each individual, in what sense is the phrase even meaningful.

The only way to know that you feel like a woman, is to know based on grounded, empirical, embodied reality, that you are a woman. Then everything you feel is feeling like a woman.

If you aren't a woman in the physical, material sense of the word, then you cannot "feel like a woman." You can only imagine you feel like a woman. And anyone can imagine anything, we shouldn't base policy and law and safeguarding on the content of people's imaginations.

Why do you continue to use “cis” as a qualifier when you’ve been told that it’s not necessary & that some find it offensive?

trans women are trans women they are not women. They need a prefix, women do not

also I do not feel like a woman I simply am one on the basis that I was born female

And your feeling that it's fine means that you can give consent on behalf of all women?

Even the women of minority faiths who can't share intimate spaces with males? And the very many female victims of male violence?

The women who will stop using spaces that admit males, and will therefore lose 100% of their provision in order that a male might select his preference from all the spaces?

That's fine with you, is it?

I must say that it's pretty damn obvious to me that you know exactly what a woman is. Because you're prioritising males every time.

My sense of womanhood has been shaped by so many things and all are equally valid

Have they been shaped by:

Premature ejaculation
Voice breaking
Fathering a child
Having a prostate check

Or do you think there is some commonality of female experiences?

You seem to think that because these men have gone through a lot and feel stuff they should be allowed access to women's spaces.

The women's changing rooms, toilets, sports, prisons are not prizes that men can win if they pass some hurdles.

If someone feels like a pilot, would you be happy for them to fly you on holiday?

If someone feels like a surgeon, are you happy for them to operate on you?

Can you give me any other examples of things people tell you they are that are provably incorrect, but upon which you take them at face value?

Interesting you admit you are uncomfortable on finding a male person in a woman’s space, but that you would subdue your natural, instinctively reaction, even though that might make you less safe?

@NancyDrawed

Without wanting to go in circles, but why are you frightened? I can't help but think of the racist demonstration of black people and/or Jewish people on TV which always portrayed them as rapists, thieves etc. just as we know some black people do commit crime, not all do and as such we would not consciously act negatively around black people because of this (I say consciously because I believe we all have subconscious biases and prejudices - but I feel ot is about being aware of them to keep them in check). I feel the same can be said for TW, not all are violent rapists, therefore why should I treat them as such.

I know I have biases. I know that my first thought is one of feeling unsettled if I saw an obvious male-looking TW in a female only space, but I would also try to question this assumption. How would I know that this male-looking person in a female space is male, what do you honestly propose?

@teawamutu

Absolutely not. I am aware people feel different. I am simply stating my opinion.

Yes, because transwomen consider the word women to be 'literal violence'. So from that perspective, I'm sure they experience violence every day, everywhere.

I really think it's a waste of time to keep engaging with this person who seems intent on telling women how to think/feel. How very male of them.

How someone feels is completely unique to them. If they feel like a woman, who am I to contradict otherwise? The same can be said for so many things.

ROFL - if it's completely unique - how is it 'like a woman'? Don't all women feel uniquely differently too then?

As things to say go, that one is fantastic. Everyone has unique feelings, but some unique feelings are 'like a woman' - not that we can define a woman to know what these feelings that we apparently all share whilst being also unique are.

"I feel the same can be said for TW, not all are violent rapists, therefore why should I treat them as such."

How does anyone woman know which man is a rapist and which is not?

The point is that women have never, do not and never will consent to men of any description using their spaces where they are led to believe that such a space is a single-sex space for females only.

Anyone who wants to deceive women about that is violating her boundaries against her consent and is, therefore, a predator. [Note that deceit vitiates consent.]

@Wifwolf

I agree I am also uncertain and questioning of my reactions. What's key I think is how much of my reaction is truly justified.

not all are violent rapists, therefore why should I treat them as such.

I honestly don't believe you're a "cisgender female," because almost every woman who ever made it into adulthood, unless she is staggeringly lucky or sheltered, is aware that you have to take precautions around men that you don't have to take around women. Yes, not all men are violent rapists. But if you're a woman and you go round blithely assuming that no men are violent rapists, and not taking precautions because you don't want to "treat them as such" you'll have a very bad time very quickly.

@Roseglen84

So I don't agree with these views and therefore I think like a male? Did you really just imply this?😂

Without wanting to go in circles, but why are you frightened?

men commit over 98% of all sex crimes. They commit over 90% of all violent crimes. However they identify.

It's not rocket science to understand the risk reduction in having sex segregation. And why a male insisting on entry to a female only space is a red flag.

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I can assure you I was born with female bits, have periods, have 2 kids...

Yes, actually. Wading in and telling women what to do or think seems to me to reek of male entitlement/ socialisation.

But this is where the issue lies. If we only consider our own reactions we fail to consider the reactions of those who might actually be really threatened by the presence of biological males in a changing room/toilet- like those who have suffered domestic violence, those with religious beliefs, or simply those who have different levels of comfort from ourselves.

If we don't do this, and just say "it's fine, we're all cool with this", how do we then turn off the tap, and protect those who are more vulnerable.

Or do we not bother, and just shunt those women out of their safe spaces?

I am all for third spaces. I think they answer a problem... however, I wonder if the third spaces would be adopted or whether they'd be rejected by trans women?

I can assure you I was born with female bits, have periods, have 2 kids...

I'll pretend to believe this - you're in the "staggeringly lucky or sheltered" category that I referred to. Perhaps you should reflect on your privilege and listen to all the other women here who are telling you tbased on life experience hat it is in fact necessary to take precautions around men, even though only a minority of men are violent rapists.