Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

[Allthegoodnamesarechosen]

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think you know what it means?

If someone feels like a woman inside and goes through all the necessary steps to try and become this - why should I be angry with this. I cannot imagine how difficult it is to live with this. The same is true the other way too.

But all are about the topic. This area is massively under researched which I feel only fuels the fear.

They're "about the topic" but they don't back up your point. And I don't see how you think the area is "massively under researched." There's a shit ton of research. However, the political climate in academia ensures that it is all of very poor quality.

indeed Tasteful. Any read of the trans widows threads would show the truth of this “violence”

SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am · Today 16:13

Did you read any of the links? Because the top 5 of them contribute to this discussion - Intimate partner violence, Domestic violence - not public loos. And I don't have time to go further since you just seem to be chucking out links in the hopes that we won't read them and realise they're irrelevant to the discussion.

To be fair, random irrelevant links is a relatively decent performance compared to a typical TRA "rape threat with girl dick" approach.

Is it not also about consent? Many men frequently say that some men who claim they are not men have been using women's spaces for decades "without issues". The fact of the matter is that these men have inserted themselves into female spaces against our consent. We have never been asked. It has been done to us, regardless of any boundaries we may choose to set for ourselves for privacy, human dignity or safety. Such men assume that the silence of women is acquiescence when, in reality, it is much more likely to be genuine fear of consequences because of male aggression.

They also say that this is what the law says. That such men have the legal right to use women's spaces. This is not what the law says in any way at all. Such men just violate the boundaries of women because they choose to and terrify many women when they do it.

@GCRich

(1) No-one is transitioning, they are LARPing

Some do and so what if some do larp? Are all larps perverts?

(2) Because they are re-enforcing retrogressive sex based stereotypes.

They? All of them? Really?

(3) Because they are denying women's rights of association and destroying their other sex based rights

There are some trans women who are very vocal, the same can be said for cos female and cos males and trans men too.

(4) Because they are denying the right of lesbians and gay men to identify as same sex attracted

Some do

(5) Because they lie
(6) Because they refuse to debate in good faith
(7) Because they are appalling social media troll and abusers
(8) Because they deny science
(9) Because they encourage vulnerable teens (often autistic or with other mental health issues down an unproven medical pathway that will leave them sterile and may leave them mutilated and unable to orgasm)
(10) Because they are unconcerned about the way they are risking the rights of more reasonable long term "old school" transsexuals who are being caught in the backlash of an insane ideology

I have been through the list and realise my answer is the same for all of them. You seem to put all trans women in the same camp? Is this correct?

If someone feels like a woman inside and goes through all the necessary steps to try and become this

How do they feel "like a woman"? How would a male know they felt anything different than how a man would feel?

@MaudeYoung

For me - I have a problem with asserting that trans women are equal to men who perpetuate violence against women.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

How someone feels is completely unique to them. If they feel like a woman, who am I to contradict otherwise? The same can be said for so many things.

For me - I have a problem with asserting that trans women are equal to men who perpetuate violence against women.

The same applies to all male people, most of whom do not perpetuate violence against women, it isn't specific discrimination against MTF trans people only.

Not all, but enough.

And even if it was none, they are NOT WOMEN and never will be.

Our no is enough. We do not have to justify it, even if it makes men sad.

If they feel like a woman, who am I to contradict otherwise?

Ah ok, well given that I don't feel that males could possibly know what "feeling female" is like, my opinion on the matter can't be contradicted.

@teawamutu

I am curious in what is fuelling your assertion that 'it's enough' and therefore it's a blanket no.

How someone feels is completely unique to them.

It's very promising that you recognise this. Since everyone's feelings are completely unique to them, no one has access to the feelings of anyone else.

So... you can recognise that men have no access to the feelings of women?

And therefore, that a man who claims to feel like a woman is basing it purely on how he imagines a woman feels?

Can you recognise that it's incredibly insulting to women to redefine us as a group based on the imaginings of men?

Men who claim they are not men are men.

My word for any man, regardless of what he claims about himself, who violates any boundaries of a woman against her consent is predator.

Some men are a risk to females and therefore all men are excluded from female only spaces. It's not a perfect system, but I belive safeguarding is about reducing risk

Regardless of how a person 'feels' - and let's be clear, it is impossible to feel like anyone but yourself - all males should be excluded from female only spaces. Transwomen are male. Therefore TW should not be in female only spaces.

I do not think that all TW are predators, just as I do not think that all men are predators. But some ARE.

I am a cis female. I am assuming you were born a female too? (Absolutely no requirement to answer this btw) As such I would never assume my female-ness would feel the same for you. My sense of womanhood has been shaped by so many things and all are equally valid, as they are for you.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

@NancyDrawed

I think this is where my opinion differs as I do feel TW are entitled to use women only spaces as they are women. I do not feel threatened by TW. Nor do I feel threatened by men.

As such I would never assume my female-ness would feel the same for you.

So there's no such thing as feeling like a woman, then?

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

Can you recognise that it's incredibly insulting to women to redefine us as a group based on the imaginings of men?

I don't feel TW are doing this but instead is how it feels to some women, which I feel fuels the controversy and anger about this issue.

From where does the "entitlement" you describe derive?

There is nothing in any law that bestows any entitlement to such men.

I could well believe that transwomen face abuse in male toilets.
My own GNC son has been called a 'transgender bitch' and told to get the fuck out. He's not transgender, just a boy with long hair. The older he gets the more you can tell he's male though by his body shape and gait.
However, the answer to this isn't to let him use the ladies toilets. As much as I know he's not a threat, other women don't.

And what does it mean "feel like a woman"? I just feel like me. Some of those feelings are shaped by having a female body, in which case a trans woman can't possibly have them.

Other than that they are just 'me'.

I don't 'feel like a woman' I just am one. On account of having a female body.

I am a cis female. I am assuming you were born a female too?

I am a woman. This means that I was born female, grew up as female, am female and will die female. It's not possible to change sex.

I don't use the term cis as it is superfluous gender ideological in-group speak, which is meaningless to me, and presumes that I support a belief system I believe is sexist and harmful.

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

Feeling like a woman is completely unique. We could define a woman in so many ways. I don't feel being born with a vagina/vulva/cervix etc means that my feelings on womanhood are more correct than those who aren't born with these.