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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men’s loos are unsafe for MTF

284 replies

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/06/2022 15:14

So last night at the jubilee street party I canvassed opinion from some men, as wide an age range as I could. I asked them what they would do if they encountered a MTF person in a mans loo or changing room.

The consensus seemed to be ‘ it depends on them’. If they looked like a woman, that is, they were smaller than most men, slightly framed, dressed in an appropriate way they would expect a woman to be in the venue where they were for example a supermarket or a cinema , they would just point out that this was the ‘gents’. Most would be taken aback but not cross.

If there was some cognitive dissonance, that is, if the person had a masculine build and heft * whilst being dressed in what one referred to as a ‘girly’ way, so not unisex jeans and trainers, they would ‘ zip up and bolt’ . They might try to use a cubicle.

No one proposed attacking or even challenging them. ‘ keep well clear, you don’t know what might happen’ was the response to the suggestion of confrontation.

Of course it was a small sample, in a middle class area with middle aged men. But they seemed to feel threatened rather than threatening.

*when I suggested that some women might present convincingly as a man in that situation, they laughed!

OP posts:
HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:01

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

Your assertion is ironic as I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and neglect (petpetrated by both men and 1 female). I am painfully aware of sexually violence. But, I don't want to be afraid of people. I don't want to judge people or add to their struggles. I have also had year's of therapy which I know has helped me in this capacity.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/06/2022 17:02

What about other women's struggles? Presume you don't want to add to them either.

Bolleauxxxx · 03/06/2022 17:02

Your argument then is to remove ALL sex and gender segregation?

if there’s no danger and we all the same and who can tell anyway because it’s a feeling on the inside that counts.

but yeah, as teawamutu says, sex is all so terribly, terribly complicated, yet you seem to have honed instinctively in on which 50% of the population should re-examine their prejudices and shut the fuck up and which 50% should get what they want at the expense of others. Funny that.

incedentally it was this sort of thing that peaked me.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:02

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I am very privelaged to have had the therapy I have had. I am also very privileged to have met/know lots of caring and loving men and trans people.

mumwon · 03/06/2022 17:04

this I can tell you
DH would run in the opposite direction if he came across f to m trans in loo if they were obvious purely from embarrassment -

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 17:04

@sunlovingcriminal "I am all for third spaces. I think they answer a problem... however, I wonder if the third spaces would be adopted or whether they'd be rejected by trans women?"

Indeed. It would demonstrate what we know about many of these men, that their behaviour is more about violating women's boundaries against their consent. Third, separate mixed-sex spaces are the answer; there is no excuse then for any man of any description to use any single sex spaces for females.

NancyDrawed · 03/06/2022 17:04

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:48

@NancyDrawed

Without wanting to go in circles, but why are you frightened? I can't help but think of the racist demonstration of black people and/or Jewish people on TV which always portrayed them as rapists, thieves etc. just as we know some black people do commit crime, not all do and as such we would not consciously act negatively around black people because of this (I say consciously because I believe we all have subconscious biases and prejudices - but I feel ot is about being aware of them to keep them in check). I feel the same can be said for TW, not all are violent rapists, therefore why should I treat them as such.

I know I have biases. I know that my first thought is one of feeling unsettled if I saw an obvious male-looking TW in a female only space, but I would also try to question this assumption. How would I know that this male-looking person in a female space is male, what do you honestly propose?

I thought I had made it clear in an earlier post. I accept that not all men are predatory, but some are.

Equally, there are plenty of men who I know reasonably well - brothers in law, schoolfriends, husbands of friends, who I would not be happy sharing a space with. Not because I think that I am at risk from them, but because of dignity and privacy and wanting to be in a space away from men when I am vulnerable.

What is it about the males who call themselves women that mean they should be allowed into female only spaces in your opinion? Because surely if some males are allowed in, then ALL males should be allowed in. Why do you think, that there should be no spaces where women can exclude males - however they identify?

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 17:04

Since you claim that you're "painfully aware of sexual violence" then you are presumably aware of the necessity of safeguarding? You understand that it's very important to reduce the opportunities for sexual predators to commit sexual violence and limit their access to vulnerable victims?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:04

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No I wouldn't want to add to other Womens struggles, but I do wonder how many of these views are actually fuelled by misappropriated fear.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:06

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I am aware of safeguarding (both personally and professionally). But again I feel you gave equated TW/men as violent rapists.

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 17:06

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 16:57

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I can assure you I was born with female bits, have periods, have 2 kids...

Fair enough. So you understand then the role that biology played in making those children. Your male partner/ husband could never have grown or birthed those children, no matter how much he may 'feel like a woman' inside.

Because men can never have the biology of women. They will never experience periods, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause. And also will never experience the discrimination on the basis of those biological processes.

This is not new

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/06/2022 17:07

No I wouldn't want to add to other Womens struggles, but I do wonder how many of these views are actually fuelled by misappropriated fear.

Maybe less patronising wondering about whether women who don't agree with you understand their own thoughts and more empathy for their feelings, boundaries and needs? It's not just about safety, it's about having privacy and dignity and being respected.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 03/06/2022 17:08

What do you mean by 'misappropriated fear'?

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:09

@Bolleauxxxx

I have not asserted anyone should stfu. I am purely stating my opinion.

It does feel we have one camp who says ‘no - you're not welcome’ and another who responds with terf! I don't think either are helpful.

MaudeYoung · 03/06/2022 17:09

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:06

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I am aware of safeguarding (both personally and professionally). But again I feel you gave equated TW/men as violent rapists.

"But again I feel you gave equated TW/men as violent rapists."

How does any woman distinguish those men who are rapists from those men who are not?

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 17:09

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:06

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

I am aware of safeguarding (both personally and professionally). But again I feel you gave equated TW/men as violent rapists.

It's not equating them with rapists, it's simply stating that they have the exact same pattern of violence, including sexual violence as any other man. Because they are men.

JellySaurus · 03/06/2022 17:10

Consider how far a journey and how difficult it would be for this very human being to be sharing the space with me.

Irrelevant. You don't earn a place in a women's space by some sort of Suffering Olympics.

This other woman is also vulnerable, so why should I deny this space to them?

Not a woman. May be vulnerable, but we do not know that. We do know that women are vulnerable to violence from men and we can't always tell which man is going to try to harm us. That is why this space should be denied to them.

Where is the sister solidarity in this?

With other women. Not with men trying to colonise womanhood.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:10

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But why do you assume that I feel this respect etc isn't awarded to me anyway?

DialSquare · 03/06/2022 17:11

Anyone else reminded of "Repent Motherfucket"?!!!!

NancyDrawed · 03/06/2022 17:11

I know I have biases. I know that my first thought is one of feeling unsettled if I saw an obvious male-looking TW in a female only space, but I would also try to question this assumption.

This actually makes me feel a bit worried for you. Why would you ignore your gut feeling? We are really good at reading the sex of people from various cues - which is why it is far more difficult for someone attempting to pass as the opposite sex in person than it is on a photo. Your instincts tell you a male is a male because male people in general are bigger and stronger than female people. And while I accept that women can be violent too, I daresay that if it came to a physical fight I would stand a better chance against a female than a male.

Roseglen84 · 03/06/2022 17:12

If you have the stomach for it HobgoblinGold, look up autogynephila - these are men who have a sexual fetish as themselves as women. They get aroused by the thoughts of being in women's spaces and being seen as a woman. Therefore they need unsuspecting women to participate in their fetish. We do not consent to this.
Stonewall of course would call these men the most oppressed in society or something....

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 17:12

I am aware of safeguarding (both personally and professionally). But again I feel you gave equated TW/men as violent rapists.

If you're aware of safeguarding both personally and professionally (yet another very difficult claim to believe) then you must be aware that limiting opportunities for sexual predators to access their victims means that you can't just assume that someone is not a predator? You have to treat them as if they might be.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:12

@MaudeYoung

We can't. And this is frightening. However I do not want to have to be worried about this everytime I leave the house. I honestly don't think a TW using female toilets is doing so because she's a pervert.

HobgoblinGold · 03/06/2022 17:14

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

So because I think differently to you - then all of what I am saying has to be fabricated? I am seeing now why you can't imagine another human beings sense of self is any more valid than your own.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/06/2022 17:15

But why do you assume that I feel this respect etc isn't awarded to me anyway?

Holy shit. It's not all about you. Women and their boundaries also deserve to be respected. Sorry. "Other" women.