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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why the hate?

217 replies

Aqublu · 25/05/2022 14:30

One thing I really don’t get about mumsnet is all the trans- hate could anyone really explain why there’s so much hate really. I’d just like to add really that there needs to be a separation from misogyny and transphobia when mumsnet mums talk about trans people they’re both issues but trans people haven’t started misogyny so I don’t know why they’re blamed for it all the time.

OP posts:
CompleteGinasaur · 30/05/2022 12:39

Perhaps @suggestionsplease1 would like to start a thread documenting the disproportionate number of violent and sexual crimes committed by lesbians? The boring, old fashioned dinosaur kind, I mean..

OldCrone · 30/05/2022 12:46

While I was looking for that other thread I found this from a few days ago.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/this-never-happens?s=r

Males who identify as trans who have committed violent crimes against women and/or children. With pictures. Looking forward to @suggestionsplease1 explaining why we should be sympathetic to these violent criminals and why they should be placed in women's prisons.

Helleofabore · 30/05/2022 13:39

You made many points suggestions. However you have not established at all, that the connection which makes them analogous. At all.

You continue to ignore it and I don't know why.

Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group. They are females and they commit crime at a rate close to the female rate. I am sure there will be other groups of females that will commit sex crime at a rate commensurate with those lesbians you are attempting to force the analogy to fit with.

Do lesbians or any other female group commit sex crime at the same rate as male?

What other male sub group are you willing to consider to be in that same 'safe risk' zone you are attempting to persuade women to accept for transitioned males?

If there are underlying reasons why those transitioned males are committing crimes at rates that seem even higher than other males, why aren't lobby groups addressing that? Why are they instead seeking to deny it. And, if the statistics are lying, why aren't the lobby groups gathering information and publishing it to refute the other statistics?

So, your analogy doesn't work, you are accusing women of hate for your own agenda. You are not working with the lobby groups to address an issue that you recognise and frankly, we know may be an issue, but it is still not a reason to including males as females in statistics, reporting, and in prisons. And if they need their own safe spaces, campaign to get them.

But you are here avoiding the reasons why the collection and dissemination of the facts and the data is necessary.

Plus if you had actually bothered to read many of the threads where that study is posted, it is rarely used to support our arguments. It has a correlation, yes. But the thing is, we can use the current statistics of transitioned males who are in the UK prisons. And yes, we have seen it and discussed it at length. Plus, please do tell us suggestions exactly what mental health support is being given to males with gender dysphoria these days? You pointed it out here:

trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. but it seems that there is now very little mental health care given. So, your own point seems to be again irrelevant for this era.

And suggestions, if you don't like those UK prison statistics then maybe you should actually go and work with those lobby groups to gather some robust data so that everyone will have very clear, unobfuscated data to work with?

Otherwise, women and women's groups will continue to collect the information and disseminate it until the push to lower the boundaries of safeguarding around this group has ceased and the myths as to their 'lower risk' is finally proven or disproven.

Beowulfa · 30/05/2022 13:58

If there is evidence that lesbians are disproportionately imprisoned compared to heterosexual women, then I would think that was interesting and hope someone with expertise in sociology/statistics was taking a closer look.

I'm assuming there are loads of uncomfortable facts in US prison stats involving race, sex, age, literacy, geography etc. Of both convicts and the police forces and judiciary personnel.

We've seen what happens when people shy away from uncomfortable facts, ie in Rotherham.

334bu · 30/05/2022 14:35

"On 14January 2022, in a reply

to a written question from Tim Loughton MP, Justice Minister Victoria

Atkins stated that the latest data, collected on 31 March 2021, showed that

there were 146 prisoners who were legally male and identified as female in

all prisons across England and Wales. This figure did not include prisoners

who identify as transgender who have a GRC. Taking into account only the

offences which had led to an individual’s current imprisonment, and not

previous offences, she stated that 87 of these prisoners who were housed

in the men’s estate had a conviction for at least one sexual offence. The

Minister also stated that the number of trans-identifying prisoners held in

the women’s prison estate with a conviction for at least one sexual offence

was fewer than 5, and that this included prisoners with a GRC. She did not

say how many trans-identifying males in total were held in the women’s

estate.8

These latest figures suggest that the proportion of trans-identifying

males in the prison estate who have been convicted of sexual offences is

in the region of 60 per cent. The exact percentage would depend on how

many prisoners the ‘fewer than 5’ in the female prison estate represented."

334bu · 30/05/2022 14:37

Forgot to post source of quote.
Policy Exchange Report.

suggestionsplease1 · 30/05/2022 16:22

Helleofabore · 30/05/2022 13:39

You made many points suggestions. However you have not established at all, that the connection which makes them analogous. At all.

You continue to ignore it and I don't know why.

Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group. They are females and they commit crime at a rate close to the female rate. I am sure there will be other groups of females that will commit sex crime at a rate commensurate with those lesbians you are attempting to force the analogy to fit with.

Do lesbians or any other female group commit sex crime at the same rate as male?

What other male sub group are you willing to consider to be in that same 'safe risk' zone you are attempting to persuade women to accept for transitioned males?

If there are underlying reasons why those transitioned males are committing crimes at rates that seem even higher than other males, why aren't lobby groups addressing that? Why are they instead seeking to deny it. And, if the statistics are lying, why aren't the lobby groups gathering information and publishing it to refute the other statistics?

So, your analogy doesn't work, you are accusing women of hate for your own agenda. You are not working with the lobby groups to address an issue that you recognise and frankly, we know may be an issue, but it is still not a reason to including males as females in statistics, reporting, and in prisons. And if they need their own safe spaces, campaign to get them.

But you are here avoiding the reasons why the collection and dissemination of the facts and the data is necessary.

Plus if you had actually bothered to read many of the threads where that study is posted, it is rarely used to support our arguments. It has a correlation, yes. But the thing is, we can use the current statistics of transitioned males who are in the UK prisons. And yes, we have seen it and discussed it at length. Plus, please do tell us suggestions exactly what mental health support is being given to males with gender dysphoria these days? You pointed it out here:

trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. but it seems that there is now very little mental health care given. So, your own point seems to be again irrelevant for this era.

And suggestions, if you don't like those UK prison statistics then maybe you should actually go and work with those lobby groups to gather some robust data so that everyone will have very clear, unobfuscated data to work with?

Otherwise, women and women's groups will continue to collect the information and disseminate it until the push to lower the boundaries of safeguarding around this group has ceased and the myths as to their 'lower risk' is finally proven or disproven.

"Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group." You make it sound like transwomen are identifying as women with the sole intent of access to a 'lower risk' group. Why would you think that, as opposed to thinking they genuinely identify as female?

"Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group. They are females and they commit crime at a rate close to the female rate." Actually, if you take some of the imprisonment stats for the US at face value, they commit crime at a far, far higher rate than straight women:

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/overwhelming-number-lesbians-bisexual-women-incarcerated-n728666

"For women, the overrepresentation is much more pronounced: Researchers found roughly a third of incarcerated women identify as lesbian or bisexual, "a proportion that is about 8 to 10 times greater than the 3.4 percent of lesbian or bisexual women in the U.S. population." When women who engaged in same-sex sexual activity prior to their detention are factored in, sexual minority women account for a staggering 42.1 percent of the female prison population and 35.7 percent of women in jails."

In fact, these figures would put lesbians not far off the rate of male offending.

Is the comparison more analogous now?

Those boards wanting to make the case further could post some of the research on sexual assaults on women by other female prisoners.

eg. citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.576.6276&rep=rep1&type=pdf

They could probably put together as persuasive a case as people could on the trans women issue?

MagnoliaTaint · 30/05/2022 16:26

"Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group." You make it sound like transwomen are identifying as women with the sole intent of access to a 'lower risk' group. Why would you think that, as opposed to thinking they genuinely identify as female?

Because any idiot can see why males would prefer to be in the jail with women. Doesn't really make any difference to the women whether they are genuinely 'feminine identifying' or not, the effect is the same.

MagnoliaTaint · 30/05/2022 16:27

The biggest, scariest, most violent lesbian cannot rape a woman, cannot get a woman pregnant, and is less likely to be able to kill a woman.

OldCrone · 30/05/2022 16:28

You make it sound like transwomen are identifying as women with the sole intent of access to a 'lower risk' group. Why would you think that, as opposed to thinking they genuinely identify as female?

What makes you think they 'genuinely identify as female'? How would we know whether a man 'genuinely identifies as female' and isn't just identifying as a woman in order to win at sporting events or gain access to vulnerable women? What qualities are there in someone who 'genuinely identifies as female' which would enable us to distinguish between them and those who are just doing it for other reasons?

What does it mean to 'genuinely identify as female'? How does someone genuinely identify as something they are not?

Thelnebriati · 30/05/2022 16:31

Researchers found roughly a third of incarcerated women identify as lesbian or bisexual,

So are they more likely to be incarcerated compared to heterosexual women?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/05/2022 16:32

More whataboutery, I see. Any chance you could deal with the issue itself? As pp said, if you want to discuss research about lesbians, start another thread.

suggestionsplease1 · 30/05/2022 16:34

334bu's post seems to suggest there are actually very few transgender women (with or without GRC) convicted of a sexual offence in the women's prison estate:

"The Minister also stated that the number of trans-identifying prisoners held in
the women’s prison estate with a conviction for at least one sexual offence
was fewer than 5, and that this included prisoners with a GRC."

MagnoliaTaint · 30/05/2022 16:44

Only five rapists in your prisons, ladies! Stand down! Sure it'll be fine.

Thank goodness it's not the case that far more assaults/rapes happen than ever result in convictions, eh? Otherwise, given the conviction rate of - what is it - 1.3%? - one might extrapolate that rather more males are guilty of rape/assault than are actually convicted of it.

MagnoliaTaint · 30/05/2022 16:45

Figure of 1.3% from here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48095118

Helleofabore · 30/05/2022 16:48

Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group." You make it sound like transwomen are identifying as women with the sole intent of access to a 'lower risk' group. Why would you think that, as opposed to thinking they genuinely identify as female?

The effect of what these particular males are advocating for though suggestions is just that. That you cannot see it, says more about you than it does us, I'm afraid.

Obviously it seems to need to be spelled out:

By recording the crime not only artificially increases the female crime statistics for that crime, it removes them from the male crime statistics.

Obfuscating these male's crimes as 'female' crimes means that when someone comes to look for the crimes, they cannot find any data about it.

Ergo, some groups can then claim that transitioned males have a lower risk of committing sex crimes than other males.

"Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group. They are females and they commit crime at a rate close to the female rate." Actually, if you take some of the imprisonment stats for the US at face value, they commit crime at a far, far higher rate than straight women:

You do keep going with that on a UK site. Yes there may well be issues with the USA lesbian community that needs to be addressed.

No. It still is NOT analogous.

These are females committing crimes as females. If there is an issue and they really are committing sex crimes near the male rate, then further research needs to be done as to why. How long has this been going on? What is driving it and address it?

It is still not analogous because no one is trying to say that lesbians are not committing those crimes. No one is trying to say that those lesbians are males. No one is attempting to hide the statistics.

Keep posting all the links you want suggestions, it makes no difference to the reasons WHY the thread you find so distasteful is there.

There is no attempt for lesbians or any support group to have these lesbian statistics recorded as anything else which will have the effect of hiding the statistics.

Again, that you cannot see that is your own issue to deal with.

But do crack on. We will just keep repeating the message as it will not change because you have tried to reframe it in some dishonest way.

Helleofabore · 30/05/2022 16:52

You make it sound like transwomen are identifying as women with the sole intent of access to a 'lower risk' group. Why would you think that, as opposed to thinking they genuinely identify as female?

To be very clear: it doesn't matter why transitioned males are identified as 'female' for the recording, reporting of crimes or for accessing female prisons or being treated as a female for incarceration.

It really DOES NOT MATTER what their intention is.

Just like sports. It really DOES NOT MATTER what their intention is, we focus on the impact of that decision made by that person. And it is a very deliberate decision. Or suggestions are you going to tell us now that trans people are denying their sex after how many posts of yours telling us that no trans person denies their sex?

suggestionsplease1 · 30/05/2022 16:53

"Fewer than 5" could actually mean 1,2,3,4 - I know that sounds silly, but when they get to very small numbers they have to follow guidelines and be very careful about how they phrase stats so that no individual could be identified. So it's not like it's definitely 4, iyswim.

The very small number compared to the 87 in the men's estate suggests safeguarding is taken seriously during these decisions.

Helleofabore · 30/05/2022 16:56

suggestionsplease1 · 30/05/2022 16:34

334bu's post seems to suggest there are actually very few transgender women (with or without GRC) convicted of a sexual offence in the women's prison estate:

"The Minister also stated that the number of trans-identifying prisoners held in
the women’s prison estate with a conviction for at least one sexual offence
was fewer than 5, and that this included prisoners with a GRC."

Are you seriously pleased to post this as a 'gotcha'....

Hey incarcerated women ... suggestionsplease1 is quite ok with you all having to share with any male because .... well we will let suggestions tell you why, face to face.

And hey, suggestions, considering I have a close female relative who just got out of prison, maybe you'd like to tell them how concerned you were for their safety! Because, to me, any person using the 'it is only x' is particularly cavalier about female safety in prison.

OldCrone · 30/05/2022 16:57

The very small number compared to the 87 in the men's estate suggests safeguarding is taken seriously during these decisions.

No it doesn't. If they really took safeguarding seriously, there wouldn't be any men in women's prisons.

Helleofabore · 30/05/2022 16:57

Why are all your links from the US? This is a UK site.

AlisonDonut · 30/05/2022 16:58

suggestionsplease1 · 30/05/2022 16:53

"Fewer than 5" could actually mean 1,2,3,4 - I know that sounds silly, but when they get to very small numbers they have to follow guidelines and be very careful about how they phrase stats so that no individual could be identified. So it's not like it's definitely 4, iyswim.

The very small number compared to the 87 in the men's estate suggests safeguarding is taken seriously during these decisions.

Not really as it should be zero.

Helleofabore · 30/05/2022 16:59

And those 5 do not include the numbers from Scotland which we know has had other transitioned males sharing prison estates with females.

suggestionsplease1 · 30/05/2022 17:03

These points that are being made could all be made with alternative minorities as their subjects!

eg. Why don't you say: "Are you telling me it is acceptable for any lesbian convicted of sexual assault to be housed in a female prison estate with women who have been convicted of white collar crime"?

I imagine a risk analysis and safeguarding approach within prison estates is taken on an individual basis rather than simply on demographics.