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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why the hate?

217 replies

Aqublu · 25/05/2022 14:30

One thing I really don’t get about mumsnet is all the trans- hate could anyone really explain why there’s so much hate really. I’d just like to add really that there needs to be a separation from misogyny and transphobia when mumsnet mums talk about trans people they’re both issues but trans people haven’t started misogyny so I don’t know why they’re blamed for it all the time.

OP posts:
BootsAndRoots · 26/05/2022 11:26

I'm hearing of more and more transsexual people being accused of transphobia, because they have had to go through surgery, hormones and all sorts of medical treatment and are insulted that men (who have done none of those things) simply self identify as trans and believe that they should be treated as women (without putting any effort in).

BootsAndRoots · 26/05/2022 11:31

Some instances of where I've been accused of transphobia:

  • Saying MtF (apparently that term became outdated a few weeks ago).
  • Saying LGB (even if the conversation is around sexual orientation, leaving the T out is transphobic).
Essentially you're dealing with the language police on the internet.
RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 26/05/2022 11:32

We are recording crimes committed by people who identify as trans because trans activists keep saying that trans people are incapable of committing sexual violence and should be exempt from safeguarding and variants thereon. Simultaneously I am told that genuine gender dysphoria means that a transwoman could never commit rape, and I am also told that the stigma of being trans means no rapist without gender dysphoria would ever claim to be trans to access victims. And policy is being made on the basis of these absurd claims! Thus we have had to collect data to counter it

this

very well said

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 26/05/2022 11:33

And a really inter Post from pots…the 22nd one obviously 😀

thats the thing about mumsnet, posters link and talk about some fascinating things…every day is a school day

potniatheron · 26/05/2022 11:39

One thing I really don’t get about trans activism is all the woman- hate could anyone really explain why there’s so much hate really. I’d just like to add really that there needs to be a separation between gender criticism and misogyny when some trans activists talk about women they’re both issues but women haven’t started transphobia so I don’t know why they’re blamed for it all the time.

MagnoliaTaint · 26/05/2022 11:40

Anyway, OP, why the hate for women and mothers? One thing I really don't understand about ploppers is that they have this need to say something really unpleasant and stupid and then fuck off again.

MagnoliaTaint · 26/05/2022 11:41

Good god, pot, we must have been typing the same thing concurrently. That's quite impressive, even for a sock.

bellinisurge · 26/05/2022 12:41

I got called a bigot today for wanting to talk about Loudon County by someone I thought would at least be willing to discuss self guarding concerns. Talking about stuff that happened = bigotry. So I guess anything that TRAs don't want to hear is "hate".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/05/2022 12:50

IO and RMW both look quite smug in their frozen shot, I wonder when it was.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/05/2022 12:51

Wrong thread! Ignore.

suggestionsplease1 · 26/05/2022 13:11

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/05/2022 08:54

Oh FFS, mumsnet.

if lesbians do have an elevated crime or DV rate, I expect it would be fine with most lesbians for that to be discussed and debated and the reasons sought.

I think suggestions may have fallen prey to a common confusion in this regard. A survey once recorded that lesbians and bisexual women suffer a higher rate of intimate partner violence. At at that point everyone stopped reading and assumed it was women at fault.

If you read on, it appears to be current and previous male partners who are predominantly responsible. (In our heteronormative society, many lesbian women don't realise they're lesbian until later in life or are pressured into abusive opposite-sex relationships.)

I'll go find the survey.

There are dozens of studies in this area showing women are at increased risk of intimate partner violence when they are in relationships with other women, compared to women in relationships with men.

And this is actually only what is reported - researchers in this are are very aware that IPV is underreported compared to IPV in straight relationships for a number of reasons - eg. that they don't recognise their experience as IPV due to their partner being female rather than male and so it doesn't fit the standard paradigm; that they don't want to harm the community and perception of lesbians by reporting it to authorities; that they may feel a sense of shame at being in a lesbian relationship in the first place and do not want it to be known by others.

OldCrone · 26/05/2022 13:12

There are dozens of studies in this area showing women are at increased risk of intimate partner violence when they are in relationships with other women, compared to women in relationships with men.

Links?

suggestionsplease1 · 26/05/2022 13:24

Lovelyricepudding · 26/05/2022 07:41

And with lesbians, unfortunately, they could root around and show population statistics for increased criminality in addition to juicy anecdotal evidence of crime.

Do you have links to good quality data showing this? Figured which exclude men who identify as lesbians? Please reference this so we can assess the data.

www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/lbq_women_prisons_jails.html

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227944/#:~:text=Sexual%20minorities%20(those%20who%20self,in%20jail%20were%20sexual%20minorities.

Here's data showing the overrepresentation of lesbians in US prisons - 2011-12, I very much doubt that these included many male born people who identified as lesbians - don't you?

Why are so many lesbians in prison if they are not disproportionately likely to take part in criminal activity?

These FWR boards use crime anecdotes and figures on trans people without reference to any possibly discrimination trans people might experience in the system, and without any reference to the prejudice and minority stress that they might experience which researchers are well aware can be contributing factors - so logically, to be consistent and not hypocritical, you can not reference these factors in the overrepresentation of lesbians in US jails. So what does that leave you with? Increased inherent criminality in lesbians?

(I am a (law-abiding!) lesbian btw.)

Roseglen84 · 26/05/2022 13:32

Another dump and run by an OP, looking for screen grabs for Twitter perhaps?

suggestionsplease1 · 26/05/2022 13:40

So on this imagined website, where people are concerned about lesbian criminality and IPV and they say:

"We've got the studies and the figures that prove this. Don't try 'no debate' us because you don't like to hear the truth. These people are a risk to our children, and we have every right to document and record that. It's not hate to try protect our loved ones. I don't want my child to be a lesbian or to be in a relationship with another women after seeing those figures and reading those stories that people try to hush up. And after all, it's just an ideology, more and more girls are identifying as lesbian now because it's a trend and their friends are doing it, it doesn't mean they are actually gay. And I know 2 people who said they were lesbian when they were younger, but they're in straight relationships and absolutely fine now. So it was just a phase, and I'm sure they regretted it, but it just goes to show how easily influenced people can be when they're young. And, well my daughter say it's not a phase for her but she's being ridiculous and naive, those 2 girls regretted it and I know my daughter will too, like them."

suggestionsplease1 · 26/05/2022 13:40

What do you say to the people posting that on their forums, without being logically inconsistent and hypocritical?

OldCrone · 26/05/2022 13:45

suggestionsplease1 · 26/05/2022 13:40

So on this imagined website, where people are concerned about lesbian criminality and IPV and they say:

"We've got the studies and the figures that prove this. Don't try 'no debate' us because you don't like to hear the truth. These people are a risk to our children, and we have every right to document and record that. It's not hate to try protect our loved ones. I don't want my child to be a lesbian or to be in a relationship with another women after seeing those figures and reading those stories that people try to hush up. And after all, it's just an ideology, more and more girls are identifying as lesbian now because it's a trend and their friends are doing it, it doesn't mean they are actually gay. And I know 2 people who said they were lesbian when they were younger, but they're in straight relationships and absolutely fine now. So it was just a phase, and I'm sure they regretted it, but it just goes to show how easily influenced people can be when they're young. And, well my daughter say it's not a phase for her but she's being ridiculous and naive, those 2 girls regretted it and I know my daughter will too, like them."

I've no idea what point you think you're making with this incoherent rambling. Do you believe that gender identity/transgenderism is the same thing as sexual orientation?

AlisonDonut · 26/05/2022 14:27

Aqublu · 25/05/2022 14:30

One thing I really don’t get about mumsnet is all the trans- hate could anyone really explain why there’s so much hate really. I’d just like to add really that there needs to be a separation from misogyny and transphobia when mumsnet mums talk about trans people they’re both issues but trans people haven’t started misogyny so I don’t know why they’re blamed for it all the time.

Is it hate, or just an understanding that men are the problem, no matter how they 'identify'?

Once you view everything through that lens, it should become clear to you.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 26/05/2022 14:34

AtrociousCircumstance · 25/05/2022 14:40

It’s not trans hate, it’s a genuine concern that women’s sex based rights and needs are being eroded.

For eg if you don’t think it’s unfair for male bodied people to compete against women in sports, why not?

If some female prisoners are being raped by male bodied inmates who identify as women, why don’t you care about the women who have been attacked?

if sexual abuse survivors are too scared to go to a support group because the rights of male bodied people to attend are being favoured over the needs of women, why is that ok?

if children and young people are being actively encouraged to engage in hormone treatments and irreversible physical surgery before they are able to fully consent, why is that not wrong?

can you answer any of those questions?

This is the post I wanted to write. I would be fascinated to read @Aqublu‘s answers - if they come back.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/05/2022 15:09

suggestionsplease1 · 26/05/2022 13:40

What do you say to the people posting that on their forums, without being logically inconsistent and hypocritical?

We're going to ask you again.

Has anyone ever claimed that being same-sex attracted makes women zero risk? Has anyone ever said that treating same-attracted women exactly the same as other women for the purposes of safeguarding rules, was homophobic?

Did anyone listen to them?

I assure you that if you ever successfully mount a campaign claiming that being same-sex attracted makes women incapable of crime, you will get pushback. So far, no-one ever has launched such a silly campaign though... Funny that.

I have no idea whether male people with gender dysphoria are "disproportionately" represented in prison for sexual violence. If you claimed this, I'd observe that given the poor prosecution statistics for sexual violence, I don't think any subset of male people are being falsely convicted at any significant rate. To me, it would seem more indicative of habitual under-conviction in other demographics, and I'd want to solve that by increasing the conviction rates of male people without transgender identities. To match.

Or, it would mean ordinary male sexual offenders were claiming to be trans as part of the trial process, in an attempt to secure more lenient sentencing.

But like I said, no idea. Why? Because I don't think it's relevant. What I seek to provide, is not evidence that these male people are a higher risk and should be treated differently from other male people. It's the reverse. Trans activists are the ones who want trans offenders treated differently. We point out reasons why male people with trans identities shouldn't be treated differently, and should be treated like every other male for the purposes of safeguarding.

Got an interesting post about that actually, but MN won't let me put it in this one.

RoseLunarPink · 26/05/2022 15:29

So it was just a phase, and I'm sure they regretted it

There's a very good reason why hardly anyone regrets a lesbian "phase" or experimental period - because there's no harm done.

By contrast, when a child or young person identifies as transgender and is affirmed by being put on hormones and lined up for and in many cases given surgery (especially girls) they go through irreversible changes and are likely to suffer damage to their health - a much more regrettable situation if they change their minds.

GC feminists don't give a hoot if a child doesn't conform to gender roles - in fact that is what we have been fighting for the right to do for centuries - for girls and women to be able to break free of the stereotypes and gendered expectations imposted on females.

Having harmful treatments that vainly attempt to make you the opposite sex to "match" your gender identity is not that though. It's regressively enforcing gender stereotypes. It's not even necessary. If gender identity wasn't so muddled as a concept, you could be "transgender" and stay the same sex (since you can't change it whatever you do) and just do whatever you like gender-wise. Like many feminists already do.

Then there would be nothing to regret.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/05/2022 15:40

extract

Do you live in England or Wales? Did you miss the deadline of 16 May to complete the Scottish Government’s survey on its proposals to reform the Gender Recognition Act?

It’s not too late to make your voice heard.

You can still write to, or meet with, your MP and ask them to lobby Ministers at Westminster to refuse cross-border recognition of GRCs issued in Scotland based on self-ID.

You might ask: why should I? After all, it only affects Scotland, doesn’t it?

Well no, as Claire Loneragan points out in her article, Self ID in the UK, and as Fair Play For Women explains here. Take Action: Say NO to letting Sex Self-ID in through the back door. • Fair Play For Women. If you haven’t already, please take a look.

But even if you think those reasons, however justified, are too remote to concern you, let me give you a compelling reason why this rush by the Scottish Government towards easily-obtained GRCs has serious implications for each and every one of us living in the UK.

Quite simply, it presents a wholly foreseeable threat to public protection. Wherever we live in the UK, we will pay the price. Let me explain.

Protecting the public was my legal responsibility for nearly 28 years. I served in English prisons first as a prison officer and thereafter rising through the grades to mid-ranking prison governor. Dealing with recidivists and risk assessing their potential for further offending was my bread and butter.

In March 2021, HM Prison Service introduced a new risk predictor tool known as OSP (OASys Sexual reoffending Predictor) to assess all adult male prisoners in England and Wales who were convicted of a current or previous sexual or sexually motivated offence. It proved to be rather more accurate than all previous processes used to predict a male sex offender’s likelihood of future offending and it enabled prisons and the Probation Service to tailor the management of these higher risk offenders more effectively both during custody and after release.

The reason why OSP is exclusively a risk predictor tool for men and why it cannot - and is not - used for women is because female sex offenders (statistically a vanishingly small group indeed) have vastly different motivations and patterns of offending. They have their own risk assessment process, an exclusively female-centred one.

I think you know where I am going with this.

OSP is not used for male sex offenders who have GRCs. They are automatically excluded because their legal sex is female. Instead, the risk assessment process for biologically female sex offenders is used, even though it is completely invalid for male-pattern sex offending and useless at predicting their future risk. [bold mine]

We know that at last count, there were 158 male prisoners (including 12 cross dressers) in male prisons in England and Wales who claim to be transgender, and that nearly 60% of them have current or previous convictions for sex offences. For comparison, the overall proportion of sex offenders in the general male prison population is less than 15%. There is an undeniable pattern here.

What we don’t know - and even though Scottish male prisoners were ten-a-penny in the various prisons at which I served in the North of England, I’d be amazed if the Prison Service even knew - is how many of those have a Scottish birth certificate or are “ordinarily resident” in Scotland.

Either would qualify a Scottish prisoner in prison anywhere in the UK for a GRC in a matter of months when the Scottish Government has its way and amends the Act. It has already confirmed that being in prison is not a bar. It has already confirmed that being a sex offender is not a bar. After all, it’s wonderfully inclusive.

Current England and Wales Prison Service transgender policy - preferred pronouns, access to ‘the preferred facilities list’ meaning make-up, women’s clothing, etc - will have the unintended consequence of supporting that quick and easy path to a Scottish GRC.

In short, an unquantifiable number of Scottish-born male prisoners in England and Wales - statistically likely to include a high proportion of sex offenders - will be able to obtain a GRC, and those GRCs will not only mean they have a right to be transferred to a women’s prison but if they are sex offenders, they will automatically be excluded from any meaningful risk assessment that will predict with any accuracy their potential for committing further sex offences after release. [bold mine- this means they will be treated differently to other male sexual offenders.]Without a meaningful risk assessment, it will be impossible for the Prison Service or the Probation Service to put into place appropriate licence conditions and safeguards to mitigate the risk to the public on release.Outraged? I am. I have written to my MP and laid the facts bare. She can’t now claim that no one told her, that she didn’t know. In fact, I pointed out to her that I can see no good reason why any male sex offender with GRC - whether born in Scotland or not - should be excused from a risk predictor tool known to be highly accurate. I certainly don’t see why a bad policy decision should be made worse by the Scottish Government’s determination to rush through a policy that doesn’t even have majority support from Scottish voters.

Women's Rights Network

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/05/2022 15:55

What do you say to the people posting that on their forums

What do we say when imaginary people post imaginary comments on an imaginary website, you mean?

suggestionsplease1 · 26/05/2022 18:27

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/05/2022 15:55

What do you say to the people posting that on their forums

What do we say when imaginary people post imaginary comments on an imaginary website, you mean?

My point is, that if it is legitimate to have a thread on these boards documenting crimes committed by trans people, why is it not legitimate for other forums to do exactly the same with other minority groups that they are fearful of?

These may exist already, I don't know. But the presence on these boards of that thread seems to me to legitimise a similar approach by others who may feel hostile towards other minorities, for example, lesbians,

If people on FWR (many of whom purport to be lesbians) wanted to protest other forums recording, collating and publishing lesbian crimes, in a nice easy-to-access spot for any reader to rile themselves up about and foster feelings of hostility towards lesbians, what leg do they have to stand on when they stand by and watch what is happening here?

You are giving the go ahead to others. They would be using the same toolbox, singing from the same hymn sheet.

NecessaryScene · 26/05/2022 18:30

why is it not legitimate for other forums to do exactly the same with other minority groups that they are fearful of?

It's should always be legitimate to tell the truth. Do you disagree with that?

Are you saying that some people have to be blocked from telling the truth, and this will somehow help you deal with people telling lies?

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