Why the hate?

[Aqublu]

One thing I really don’t get about mumsnet is all the trans- hate could anyone really explain why there’s so much hate really. I’d just like to add really that there needs to be a separation from misogyny and transphobia when mumsnet mums talk about trans people they’re both issues but trans people haven’t started misogyny so I don’t know why they’re blamed for it all the time.

They're not crimes committed by "trans people" though, are they? They're committed by male trans people, in the same way as other males are statistically more likely to do. In response to people claiming that there have never been any incidents of these male people being violent to women, and suggesting that these male people pose no greater risk to women, than other women do. A little more honesty, please.

i Have only skim read that so I may have missed something, but it seems to include gay men and lesbians and doesn’t seem to say lesbians alone are responsible for sexual assaults, so I’m unsure of what it means.

if it is legitimate to have a thread on these boards documenting crimes committed by trans people, why is it not legitimate for other forums to do exactly the same with other minority groups that they are fearful of?

You've had that answered multiple times for you by me and others.

If people on FWR (many of whom purport to be lesbians)

You imagine people are fibbing about being gay? FFS there really is no point arguing with you, is there?

I think you've come to the wrong online forum... you're looking for the one called... don't think I can say the actual name on here....a clue for you .. think New Zealand and a bird that doesn't fly. 🐥

Here's data showing the overrepresentation of lesbians in US prisons - 2011-12, I very much doubt that these included many male born people who identified as lesbians -

99% of sex offenders are male. Almost 90% of victims are female. I think I'll take my chance with lesbians.

You imagine people are fibbing about being gay? FFS there really is no point arguing with you, is there?

Well, if they can believe people might fib about being gay on a random anonymous forum, perhaps they could reach the astounding realisation that if it was claimed lesbians should be treated differently from other women, then women might lie about being gay to gain an advantage or avoid that disadvantage, just as people might "lie" about being "trans".

The reason treating men and women differently works is (a) it's virtually impossible to lie about your sex without being caught out, and (b) the difference in behaviour is huge - big enough to be worth caring about (even ignoring the totally-binary pregnancy risk issue.)

Any purported few percent statistical difference between groups of women fails as a practical tool on both those counts, just as using "trans" as a discriminator does.

OK, at least thanks for your honesty.

So you believe it is legitimate for other forums to focus on gathering, collating and highlighting crimes committed by other minority groups, as it is important to tell "the truth" about what is happening? Putting them together in one easy-to-access location for everyone to read one, after the other, I guess so that they can be fully informed about these minority groups?

In addition to telling "the truth", can you imagine other impacts of this process?

www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_ngozi_adichie_the_danger_of_a_single_story?language=en

Ooh, dear. Linking to Chimamanda Ngozie Adichie? Don't you know she's cancelled for being t**f-adjacent, and saying "transwomen are transwomen"?

Don't you remember a non-binary author making remarks about machetes in connection with Chimamanda, which Chimamanda took as a threat and encouragement to others to kill Chimamanda?

I've given you evidence that lesbians are statistically supposedly far, far more likely to commit crimes that straight women. What do you have to say about that?

I'm fully aware of the broader picture around Chimamanda thanks.

Are you unable to directly address the substance of what I am specifically posting?

So just the original post from the OP to start the thread? Clearly a genuine question, then.

I thought the evidence wasn't that lesbians were more prone to commit offences ?

They were more prone to experiencing violence from men so involved in more crimes but not actually committing them at a noticeable higher rate

I am sure someone said that already , have you responded or are you just repeating your earlier statement ?

Why are lesbians / bisexual women incarcerated at far, far higher rates in US jails than straight women?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227944/#:~:text=Sexual%20minorities%20(those%20who%20self,in%20jail%20were%20sexual%20minorities.

And of course, to be logically consistent, you may not refer to disadvantage, discrimination, prejudice, or minority stress, as these are factors that are not considered by GC feminists in their analysis of crimes committed by trans people.

I wouldn't try that one. I can count, and know exactly how many posts of mine you've ignored. Shall we do a quick recap?

Any comment on how the standard risk assessment system for male sex offenders doesn't apply to those with gender recognition certificates?

Any comment on how no-one has ever claimed that same-sex attracted women are incapable of committing criminal acts? Thus no-one has ever felt the need to record offences to counter lies?

You keep trying to reflect arguments back by simply substituting words, but the arguments don't work because the context is different. For example, the ramifications of medication to interfere with puberty, followed by cross-sex hormones, are nothing like being a teenage girl dating Sandra instead of Samuel.

Are you putting it down to "blue brains" or something? What exactly are you trying to say here?

I am sure you put a great deal of emphasis on evidence and statistics, fair enough.

So you will know that there are many countries now that have had more relaxed processes for gender recognition certificates for several years.

So what statistically significant evidence have you found, from the hundreds of millions of people that live in countries where these more relaxed processes have been employed, for many years, that there has been a detriment to women?

This is another example of argument by substitution.

As a feminist, I have pre-existing concerns about the suitability of prisons for female offenders. (84% there for non-violent offences, studies showing 80%+ have had head injuries and so on). So I will be concerned if a subset of women are being imprisoned at an even higher rate.

However, I'm going to be honest here. As a feminist, I want all rapists and child abusers in prison. If you tell me that male offenders of one demographic are going to prison at a higher rate, I want to increase the rate of all other sex offenders to match.

When we are discussing male sex offenders, and how to judge their recidivism, and whether some rapists are getting preferential treatment that imperils public safety, what the hell relevance does it have if teenage shoplifters are more likely to get a custodial sentence if they're same-sex attracted? Hmm? I'll answer that for you. It has zero relevance. Zero.

I think she's suggesting that male sex offenders who are recorded as trans are more likely to end up in prison than other male offenders, due to institutional and societal discrimination.

I'm afraid that I think 100% of all rapists deserve prison. I am more concerned with eliminating any privilege that may be allowing rapists from other demographics to escape.

At what point does a male who happens to identify as a woman come out of the 'high risk' class of male? When does that actually happen?

Well, shall we look at Ireland, and the women sharing Limerick Jail?

You're very keen to emphasise that same-sex attracted women are more at risk of prison sentences, so this means same-sex attracted women are at a higher risk of sharing prison with males who want to rape them.

Limerick Jail had three or four male prisoners at one point. In order to accommodate them and keep the female prisoners safe, conditions for the incarcerated women were compromised. They ended up sleeping on mattresses on the floor of other cells, because the male rapists had to be given cells to themselves.

I only looked at the paper linked to very quickly, but couldn't see any mention of trans-identifying prisoners. Just a conclusion that "There is disproportionate incarceration, mistreatment, harsh punishment, and sexual victimization of sexual minority inmates, which calls for special public policy and health interventions."

I'm not sure that that addresses anything raised by the OP, who has disappeared after starting the thread. I'm struggling to assume good faith here.

I'd just like to pause for a laugh at the pivot from "collecting statistical evidence is hateful" to "none of this counts unless you have statistical evidence".

Yes, we know countries that go for self-ID don't like collecting evidence.

That was a reply to @PurgatoryOfPotholes

"I think she's suggesting that male sex offenders who are recorded as trans are more likely to end up in prison than other male offenders, due to institutional and societal discrimination.
I'm afraid that I think 100% of all rapists deserve prison. I am more concerned with eliminating any privilege that may be allowing rapists from other demographics to escape."

I'm actually focussing very directly on the original intent of this thread - which is about if there is 'hate' or not directed towards trans people on FWR.

I have asked if a thread here recording, collating and highlighting crimes by trans people constitutes 'hate'. I have asked people to consider whether a similar thread on a forum about crimes committed by lesbians would constitute 'hate' towards lesbians.

I do not accept the argument that the thread on FWR is purely about people who are claiming to be trans to access female prison estate, or to gain any material advantage by fraudulently claiming to be trans; that thread has plenty of posts that are simply documenting crimes committed by trans people.

Nobody seems to have addressed these core points, that I can see, preferring to side track instead.

It seems like a desperate distraction technique to me, Biology.