Why the hate?

[Aqublu]

One thing I really don’t get about mumsnet is all the trans- hate could anyone really explain why there’s so much hate really. I’d just like to add really that there needs to be a separation from misogyny and transphobia when mumsnet mums talk about trans people they’re both issues but trans people haven’t started misogyny so I don’t know why they’re blamed for it all the time.

Does anyone have a good victoria sponge recipe?

What do you think about people researching lesbian pattern criminality who believe the crime figures and the vast overrepresentation of lesbians and bisexual women in US jails show that there is lesbian/ bisexual woman pattern violence?

I notice that you completely ignore myself and others explaining the problems with your analogy and repeat the same points that have been addressed.

I found your proposed parallel argument odd to be honest:

"A parallel argument would be if some adults wanted to be treated as children and we argued for 'segregation' of things like nursery, play parks and getting your nappy change on the basis of age."

I don't know why you are bringing in how people are treated according to age...Most people agree that age and maturity are reasonable grounds for different treatment; a 2 year old can not be expected to have the same treatment, rights and responsibilities as a 50 year old. However, many feminists now believe men and women should be treated the same, don't they?

That resources thread goes well beyond examples of people using self id to exploit the legal system (if that is in fact what any of them show); much of the time there are just examples of trans people committing crimes. If that's allowed then surely, by logic, other sites must be allowed to have similar threads recording crimes by individuals of minority groups they feel they have reason to be fearful of, no?

And with lesbians, unfortunately, they could root around and show population statistics for increased criminality in addition to juicy anecdotal evidence of crime.

If FWR boards are allowed to do this for trans people committing crimes, why shouldn't other sites do this to highlight lesbian criminality? I am sure there would be some people on those boards saying "We need to protect straight women from lesbians and bisexual women - look at the evidence we have found about lesbian pattern criminality."

Given the tiny numbers of incarcerated women compared to male prisoners, I am sure you could also find that brunette women are more of a threat than blonde women. The fact remains that the greatest risk to women does not come from lesbian/bisexual woman but comes from members of the male sex and this is not decreased even if these males identify as women.

I don't know why you are bringing in how people are treated according to age...Most people agree that age and maturity are reasonable grounds for different treatment; a 2 year old can not be expected to have the same treatment, rights and responsibilities as a 50 year old. However, many feminists now believe men and women should be treated the same, don't they?

If you believe that men and women should be treated the same in all circumstances, what does someone mean when they announce that they are transgender and want to be treated as the opposite sex? Are you arguing for totally equal treatment in everything and the erasure of the category of sex?

Ok so I've only read the first post and then checked how many posts the OP had made. Just the one then. Another drive by scolding.

I don't know why you are bringing in how people are treated according to age...Most people agree that age and maturity are reasonable grounds for different treatment; a 2 year old can not be expected to have the same treatment, rights and responsibilities as a 50 year old. However, many feminists now believe men and women should be treated the same, don't they?

No feminists, particularly GC feminists, believe that women should have equality and this can only be achieved by dismantling the subtle and pervasive gender stereotypes that distort society.

Equality is not the same thing as being treated the same. Feminists don't think both sexes should be put in the same prisons or compete against each other at weight lifting because they are not physically the same.

This is the point of my analogy:

Why should males who commit violent sex crimes be treated as women by the justice system? Its as silly as letting an adult who says they are a child into primary school.

And with lesbians, unfortunately, they could root around and show population statistics for increased criminality in addition to juicy anecdotal evidence of crime.

Do you have links to good quality data showing this? Figured which exclude men who identify as lesbians? Please reference this so we can assess the data.

250g each of s r flour, Marg, caster sugar
5 eggs
Cream Marg and sugar, add flour and eggs
Mix on high for ten minutes with k beater
In the oven at 160 degrees for 30 minutes
Sandwich with whipped cream and raspberry jam 😋

suggestionsplease1

All you're really doing is demonstrating that you've never listened enough to debate points on either side to understand what's going on.

We are recording crimes committed by people who identify as trans because trans activists keep saying that trans people are incapable of committing sexual violence and should be exempt from safeguarding and variants thereon. Simultaneously I am told that genuine gender dysphoria means that a transwoman could never commit rape, and I am also told that the stigma of being trans means no rapist without gender dysphoria would ever claim to be trans to access victims. And policy is being made on the basis of these absurd claims!

Thus we have had to collect data to counter it.

Women are capable of sexual violence. Much lower statistical risk than men, but never the less possible, whatever their sexuality. No-one has sought to declare a subset of adult women magically incapable of committing sexual assaults, much less constructed safeguarding policies assuming that they are incapable!

Teenagers with nothing better to do.

Not quite sure why transitioned males should not be excluded from being called out for perpetuating misogyny.

Who started misogyny is rather pointless.

Are transitioned males still resorting to misogyny? Absolutely.

Anyone who denies clearly has an agenda.

Exactly - feminists aren’t keeping track of these crimes to bully trans people, but to record who is actually committing crimes that are being recorded as women’s crimes when they are not, and because, as the thread titles say, one of the arguments in favour of self ID is that trans people simply don’t commit crimes like these and men don’t self-ID as trans in order to make sex offending easier. it’s important when you are being gaslighted that this “never happens” to monitor the evidence that shows otherwise.

The evidence actually shows that sex offenders are over-represented among trans-identified males, I.e. transwomen, at least among convicts. This doesn’t surprise me in the slightest as self ID clearly offers a loophole for sex offenders to get closer to victims. That is about predatory males doing what they do, not about trans people. If you believe that self-ID-ing as trans instantly makes you trans, then you need to address these statistics as relating to trans people, but that’s not necessarily how everyone else sees it - because most people can see that self-ID is open to abuse by non-trans people.

I know nothing about lesbian crime rates, but if lesbian activist groups were making claims that can’t be proved by evidence, demanding everyone else pay lip service to them, getting people sacked for not doing so, making death and rape threats to unbelievers, and claiming lesbians were incapable of crime, and their ideology was taking over society, education and law, I’d likewise want to keep track of the reality behind that narrative. But they’re not.

if lesbians do have an elevated crime or DV rate, I expect it would be fine with most lesbians for that to be discussed and debated and the reasons sought.

We are recording crimes committed by people who identify as trans because trans activists keep saying that trans people are incapable of committing sexual violence and should be exempt from safeguarding and variants thereon. Simultaneously I am told that genuine gender dysphoria means that a transwoman could never commit rape, and I am also told that the stigma of being trans means no rapist without gender dysphoria would ever claim to be trans to access victims. And policy is being made on the basis of these absurd claims! Thus we have had to collect data to counter it.

This.

Sadly this is the only way to show the problem because the police and CPS have been applying self-ID for several years so there is simply no data collected about sexually violent offenders who claim to be trans.

You can infer the scale of the problem from the meteoric rise in 'women' rapists but only collecting the actual cases shows that there are significant numbers of males who present as male but claim to be trans when caught or to gain access to single sex spaces that are commiting these crimes.

if lesbians do have an elevated crime or DV rate, I expect it would be fine with most lesbians for that to be discussed and debated and the reasons sought.

I think suggestions may have fallen prey to a common confusion in this regard. A survey once recorded that lesbians and bisexual women suffer a higher rate of intimate partner violence. At at that point everyone stopped reading and assumed it was women at fault.

If you read on, it appears to be current and previous male partners. (In our heteronormative society, many lesbian women don't realise they're lesbian until later in life or are pressured into abusive opposite-sex relationships.

I'll go find the survey.

Oh FFS, mumsnet.

if lesbians do have an elevated crime or DV rate, I expect it would be fine with most lesbians for that to be discussed and debated and the reasons sought.

I think suggestions may have fallen prey to a common confusion in this regard. A survey once recorded that lesbians and bisexual women suffer a higher rate of intimate partner violence. At at that point everyone stopped reading and assumed it was women at fault.

If you read on, it appears to be current and previous male partners who are predominantly responsible. (In our heteronormative society, many lesbian women don't realise they're lesbian until later in life or are pressured into abusive opposite-sex relationships.)

I'll go find the survey.

Right, here we are.

extract

Violence by an
Intimate Partner
• The lifetime prevalence of rape,
physical violence, and/or stalking
by an intimate partner was:
For women:

- Lesbian – 43.8%
- Bisexual – 61.1%
- Heterosexual – 35.0%

So, pretty damning right? But read on.

extract

Sex of Perpetrator of Intimate
Partner Violence

"Most bisexual and heterosexual
women (89.5% and 98.7%,
respectively) reported having only male perpetrators of
intimate partner violence. Two-thirds of lesbian women
(67.4%) reported having only
female perpetrators of intimate partner violence."

By the way, this is all from the CDC National Intimate Partner
and Sexual Violence Survey:
2010 Findings on Victimization
by Sexual Orientation.

If only two-thirds of victimised lesbians report exclusively female perpetrators, that means males could be responsible for up to a third of intimate partner violence against lesbians. And suddenly, the stats for domestic violence between same-sex female couples are looking like they're on par or lower than the stats for women in opposite-sex relationships.

Blimey, Potholes, what happened to your first post

Blimey, Potholes, what happened to your first post

I rather enjoyed it.

People told me I should have done coding instead of French. Clearly they were right. Either I have a gift for it or MN is broken. And that would never happen after an update.

It looked like a rather interesting art piece.

It's the online version of speaking in tongues.

I need caffeine...

I thought pots was feeding us some kind of pasta spam gone wrong.....

Thanks for the details potholes - I did say "if lesbians do have an elevated crime or DV rate" because I absolutely did not take that as fact, knowing what I do about stats and misrepresentation of science studies. (And didn;t have time earlier to go looking it up.)

And it's also a good example of what I was referring to - if a claim like that is made or a result like that is found, it makes sense to dig deeper, discuss it and see what's really going on. This is one obvious explanation for those figures - there could be others too such as willingness to report, or ability to see certain behaviours as DV while you are still involved.

The same goes for the newly high levels of rapes recorded as being by women, and even as being by transwomen – it's likely that that isn't the whole story and we need to dig, discuss and debate. The GI lobby does itself no favours by not wanting this discussed.

That explains a lot. I never bought the lesbians are more violent bs, it just did not tally with any other facts or personal experiance.