I was beaten to third place in a running race by a trans woman

[Athleticpotential]

It's a very low key local running race, neither of us are usually contenders, but a combination of circumstances meant the field was such that we finished 3rd and 4th.

The prize is a bottle of cheap wine, it's not about that.

I know her to chat to at races and I like her. It's not common knowledge that she's trans, she enters races as a woman. She is very masculine to look at, but TBH, until recently I thought she was an unfortunate woman, I had no idea.

So in the scheme of things it doesn't matter, but it does....?

Should I "do" anything? What?

This biological male came 3rd in a woman's race, instead of was it 33rd or 34th - I would need to scroll back to find out. So running in the wrong category was most definitely an advantage. Normally as OP said the field would have been bigger and no doubt this person wouldn't have been in what in competitive sport is a medal winning position. But for the woman (no need for the word cis) who might have been aiming for say 10th and was pushed into 11th it would matter. Except like OP who knew she was third legitimately, the prize didn't matter. It's just at what level do we take a stand.

Found the male supremacist!

Perhaps you’d like to get back to perusing your copy of Misogynists’ Quarterly?

But the truth is that this person is male and running against females.

The truth is that this person is disadvantaging females.

That the person may be made unhappy to have those facts pointed out does not make them untrue, and this person is choosing to enter into a situation where females may stand up for their equality or stay silent and subordinate their own interests to avoid distressing a male person. Intentional or not, this then becomes emotionally coercive. And this male person needs to take responsibility for their choice, and that they are forcing female people to a point where they have to name truths whether or not the male person would wish them to do so.

Because it is not all and only about a male person and a bunch of service humans.

Interpreting women standing up for their rights as “transphobia” is a sure sign of misogyny. Every. Single. Time.

And yes, the issue IS that the person you refer to is male. Not that they’re trans, but that they’re male. That is indeed the whole essence of the problem.

Well done for working it out. Carry on like that and you might allow some reason to filter into your prejudices!

It matters. It’s wrong. But there’s nothing you can do. I feel as though the Feminist movement was making such progress, that men have found a way to destabilise and undermine the cause from the inside 😔

I think someone would have to have had surgery for you not to know they were trans, as in feminising the facial features, removing the adam's apple etc. So I think in most cases the club organisers and members would know - do you know if they knew in this case? How did you find out for sure that he was a trans woman? If everyone in the club now knows, then everyone will know that he is a cheat who would have come in 37th place if he hadn't been placed in the wrong category.

I wonder why trans women want to run against actual females anyway, the victories are so hollow and they must know that.

I see it as a measure of just how deep “hidden” misogyny goes.

This is how truly second class we still are under the shiny surface of our hard gained rights and legal equality. That this could happen at all.

@Ntsure

That is a crazy argument. The fact that there are two women who beat the trans woman doesn't mean that the trans woman doesn't have a general advantage - it just means that the trans woman was a not very good male runner and so can't totally trounce all female runners. Up until he was 50, my dad could beat 20 year old me at most long distances due to strength, but I was relatively far better in my category.

And I think we all know what the OP meant. It wasn't intended to be mean.

This matters. It's the shhh keep quiet it's ok don't want to make a fuss or be seen to be anything other than an ally that will be the end of competitive sports for women.

The truth is that it is not really possible to change sex. Of course legally it is, but this is a fiction in biological terms.

You can see that @Ntsure really desperately wants everyone to believe TWAW but it is not literally true biologically. A transwoman who has gone through puberty will still have a body that is male and confers advantage in terms of strength.

Everyone here has no desire to persecute trans women and wants them to live dignified lives, but why should women have to pretend something that is to their detriment? To be honest, I think that a trans woman who truly believes that there is absolutely no category difference between them and women probably needs more counselling to accept who they are, not just what they want others to think of them - unfortunately, there will always be "female" things that exclude them due to basic biology and the solution really shouldn't be about coercing society (and women in particular) never to mention them or to celebrate their biology for fear of being "exclusionary". Be proud to be a trans woman, but accept that this is not the same as being born female.

'The male' was the appropriate sex designator for this purpose. This person is male. Not quite sure whether you missed the memo, trans people have told us that they are not denying their sex.

My 'objection' is very clear, I agree. Your 'objection' lacks any critical thought or any evidential basis.

The fact you have not addressed anything else in my posts about either category boundary changes, nor the comparison about a cyclist with a clear advantage coming third in the Tour de France.

Instead, you have resorted to more hyperbole.

this poor woman was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice

This person was 'just running' in a fun run in a category that was set up to allow females to have a category in the sport to compete fairly. Just because it is a 'fun run' doesn't mean that it doesn't matter to females to have meaningful competition.

The injustice resulted, whether it was intended to be an 'injustice' or not. This is supposedly a mature adult male who has their own agency. That they have decided that fairness in female's competitions do not matter to them, is their issue to resolve and acknowledge.

Because you cannot deny the truth.

The truth in this instance is that a male ran in a female sports category with the intention of running in the female sports category. They deliberately registered as a female when they are not.

But please do crack on telling females to 'be kind' and implying that we are transphobic for pointing out that in this instance, sex matters. In many instances in life, it does not matter.

But in this situation, sex does matter.

Cheat.

Again on this thread a poster has quoted 'living as a woman', I am still waiting for someone to define what this is and how a man knows he is 'living as a woman'.

Anyway the facts are this, transwomen are cheating. Most of them are taking drugs, sounds like this competitor is.

That said not all transwomen believe this is fair. There is golfer, Alison Perkins, who is a transwoman who competes in golf, in the correct sex category ie. with the men, good for them. There is another Scottish golfer however, Hailey Davidson, who finds it irritating that there is opposition to tw competing in womens sports and adds that she didn't have the longest drive so there you go, proving there's no advantage. YAWN. Unfortunately you will always get people who cheat.

@motherofthelittlescreamingone

“Be proud to be a trans woman, but accept that this is not the same as being born female.”

One sentence that neatly sums up the whole situation.

Sports should be based on sex not gender. Gender identification can be anything you want it to be ranging from the opposite sex to a Dualit toaster. Gender is not a real, tangible thing outside a person’s brain and thought processes. Universities are now telling people the pronouns of anyone who identifies as a cat (I kid you not).

To be clear @Ntsure

Would you say any of following?

"this poor 25 year old was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing as an under 10 year old"?

"this poor 25 year old was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing as an over 75 year old"?

"this poor person with no visual impairment was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing in a category for those with visual impairments"?

"this poor professional athlete was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing as an amateur"?

"this poor sportsperson who failed a sports drug test was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice"?

If not, why do you think it is appropriate that a transitioned male who has been through male puberty should be able to compete with females?

Why? Because you wish to ignore the competitive advantage that a male who has been through a male puberty has over a female body?

It may have been me who said living as a woman. If so, I meant they are presenting an image to the world of what a woman looks like as in traditionally female clothes and hairstyles, make up etc. This is one of the confusions I have with non binary people as I don’t understand what they mean when they say sometimes they feel female, sometimes they feel male and sometimes they feel neither. What does that mean? 🤷‍♀️I’ve just been trying to work out what the acronym YAWN meant then realised it’s the actual word 😁

I’d get on twitter and tag the likes of Sharon Davies.

it absolutely does matter, but same as the girls racing Lia Thomas you can’t speak out as you’ll just get called transphobic, bitter etc.

if you have any links or tweets we could get on it?

Just so that @Ntsure really does get the category issues at stake here is another few.

"this poor heavyweight boxer was just boxing in a fun boxing comp not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing as a featherweight"?

"this poor dolphin was just in a fun swim not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing as a human"?

"this poor black belt was just fighting in a fun bout not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing as a novice"?

Do you understand sports categories and why sports categories exist @Ntsure?

Why do you believe that someone from a category of human that is scientifically and historically been proven and is common knowledge (and we can link up studies that are very recent - and no the science has not changed at all despite what activists would like to think) to have advantage of other categories should be able to compete with a category that lacks that advantage? Ever? Regardless of if it is a 'fun' run event or the Olympics?

It may have been me who said living as a woman. If so, I meant they are presenting an image to the world of what a woman looks like as in traditionally female clothes and hairstyles, make up etc

this is the issue most of have though. Being a woman is not a collection of stereotypes. Not one person has been able to define “woman feelings” without resorting to hair, make up and clothes.

I was a on zoom call the other day and one of the participants had their pronouns as they/meow.

No joke. A grown, professional woman on a work conference call, with 'meow' as her pronoun. It felt so juvenile, so attention-seeking.

No joke. A grown, professional woman on a work conference call, with 'meow' as her pronoun. It felt so juvenile, so attention-seeking

really? I’d have assumed it was a GC woman attempting to subvert the whole shit show rather than someone who actually wanter to be referred to as “meow”

She was so very gracious and supportive as she overtook me.

Are runners normally gracious and supportive when they overtake? I suspect that tells you that she knew she should not have been in this race, but that normally being in a low position doesn't draw attention to it.

I would have a lot more respect for TW if they tried to pit themselves against their biological sex. Even not winning - it's always worth aiming for a Personal or Seasons Best.

living as a woman

I probably said it. I'm old fashioned, nowadays it's more like "permanantly presenting as a woman" or whatever. As long as I can get across roughly what I mean I can't always be arsed to to nitpick this stuff, it falls apart as soon as you poke it anyway.

No I don't think so. She had blue hair and was leading one of the items on the agenda, which was about diversity.🙄