Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I was beaten to third place in a running race by a trans woman

431 replies

Athleticpotential · 12/05/2022 07:06

It's a very low key local running race, neither of us are usually contenders, but a combination of circumstances meant the field was such that we finished 3rd and 4th.

The prize is a bottle of cheap wine, it's not about that.

I know her to chat to at races and I like her. It's not common knowledge that she's trans, she enters races as a woman. She is very masculine to look at, but TBH, until recently I thought she was an unfortunate woman, I had no idea.

So in the scheme of things it doesn't matter, but it does....?

Should I "do" anything? What?

OP posts:
whenwilliwillibefamous · 12/05/2022 11:31

No one knows in a running event who’s entered in which sex/age categories - you all run together and they announce results and hand out prizes at the end.

Not always true. Larger races in particular can have sex printed on the race bib (TBH to put a brake on people illicitly passing on numbers, I suspect!) and I have even run an overseas race where age cat was printed on them too.

NecessaryScene · 12/05/2022 11:31

I am with the people on this who say it is irrelevant as this is a low level /fun the competition

How far does this principle extend though? Is racism and homophobia acceptable at low-level/fun competitions, and only to be properly addressed at high level?

Why should sexism be taken less seriously at low level?

Peregrina · 12/05/2022 11:31

Difference in age and body type are all still within a sex class though.

I wasn't arguing that they weren't. I was answering the poster who seemed not to realise that age and length of stride and build matter in athletics.

Helleofabore · 12/05/2022 11:33

Not saying you haven't got a right to be disappointed, but I guess the counter argument would be when and how do sportspeople who have transitioned join in with these events?

There is no barrier for transitioned people to join in with these events. Unless, of course, at this level they still have an anti-doping policy - then transitioned females cannot compete with females.

It is hyperbolic to suggest that they are not able to 'join in with these events'.

Do we just say male to female trans people have to have their own races and events? that's not going to work is it, there won't be enough?

There have been different options suggested, including an 'open' category and a female category. Transitioned males should never be racing in female categories if they have experienced male puberty .

Some kind of handicap/penalty when they compete with CIS women?

And how does this get calculated? And why should any competitor then be put into a female category if they can get their performance to reflect some loss. How much of this loss is due to deliberate 'body sculpting' to lose muscle mass and create a 'female' profile? Why should ANY athlete be rewarded for this deliberate action that will lower performance?

I genuinely don't know the answer, but ' making' trans women compete with males, or banning them from competitive sporting activity at any level seems a bit harsh ( although no more harsh then a CIS women being denied a prize/medal /place on a national or local team due to a trans woman competing)

They are not being 'banned'. Again, this is relying on overly emotive and manipulative language. They are males.

This is a category breach. Do you:

think that a 25 year old should compete with the under 10 year olds?
think that a 25 year old should compete with the over 75 year olds?
think that someone is not visually impaired should compete in a visually impaired category?

Why should a transitioned male compete with a female?

Such a difficult situation.

I disagree that it is difficult. We are constantly told that trans people do not deny their 'sex'.

MichelleScarn · 12/05/2022 11:34

tabbycatstripy · 12/05/2022 10:48

‘I genuinely don't know the answer, but ' making' trans women compete with males, or banning them from competitive sporting activity at any level seems a bit harsh’

But letting males compete with females doesn’t? Is that because fairness for female people doesn’t matter?

I wouldn’t want to see anyone banned from competitive sport (nobody is suggesting such a ban) but the demarcation needs to be biological sex, not gender identity.

Absolutely agree @tabbycatstripy . Interesting to see that for some expecting people to run in their sexed group is being a big meanie and harsh. But females being made to compete with biological males is lovely and kind and demanded.

Peregrina · 12/05/2022 11:41

A friend and I noticed when watching a marathon that tall women with small boobs did better - but that's just how it is."

This is such a disingenuous and ridiculous argument.

This was neither disingenuous or an argument. Merely a simple observation. In that particular race one man came in significantly in front of the next batch of runners. The first female came in maybe 17 minutes after and was young, tall, and beat quite a lot of the middle aged men like my friend. Fortunately for this race there were male, female categories and age within them.

Thelnebriati · 12/05/2022 11:42

Sports are a sex affected activity and can legally exclude all men, even if they have a GRC.
I think in these cases if they won't abide by the Equality Act or Gender Recognition Act, we should approach from another direction. Ask the organisers to change the title to 'mixed sex', as its no longer for women.

Peregrina · 12/05/2022 11:47

as you are about allowing TW to compete with a much bigger advantage?

And don't for God's sake put me in the category of saying that TW should compete with women. You have completely misunderstood what I have been writing. None of my posts have said that. We are in fact in agreement. My friend was a bit disappointed with his result, based on his age and sex. He wasn't trying to compete with the 20 year olds.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 12/05/2022 11:49

Reading all the posts about “transwomen” or “transgender women” etc, I’m reminded again just how important clear, accurate language is.

Every single “transwoman” is, of necessity, biologically male. That is the reality.

And where sports are segregated, as the vast majority are, on the basis of biological sex, no biologically male person has any business being in the category set aside for biologically female people. That’s all there is to it. It should be entirely straightforward, an open and shut case.

But all this talk of a “different kind of women” clouds the issue.

There is no other kind of women. There are adult human females and that’s it. No one has ever come up with a non-circular alternative definition of woman that includes some adult human males, because there isn’t one. There is no single characteristic that all women share except that of being biologically female adults.

Whatever state of functionality that biology may be in, what it definitely isn’t is male. Which is what the people some call “transwomen” are. Adult human males. Asking - often demanding - that the rest of the world play along with the pretence that they are adult human females.

And the rest of the world has been doing so for far too long, in far too many ways. Because we live in a world where male people fundamentally matter more than female people.

You can see it right here on this thread. The appeals to be kind, to insist on the importance of these people having their “fun”, their right to conceal their sex even in situations where their sex matters.

The female people adversely impacted by this pretence, though - no such obligation to be kind to them, to prioritise their fun, to think of their rights to fairness in sport, as in many other arenas. They don’t matter, their feelings don’t matter; they are cast, as always, in the role of service humans, there to make the lives of male people better at their own expense.

This is not a minority civil rights movement. Biologically male trans people as a class are not the most vulnerable, marginalised community there is. It’s all poppycock. A tiny minority are actually vulnerable males who should be afforded the same care and protection as other vulnerable males, but the vast majority are privileged males taking full advantage of that privilege to trample all over the few rights women had managed to win prior to the exponential growth of the “trans rights” movement and the irresistible rise of gender identity ideology.

The examples on this thread of the multiple males taking opportunities, awards and recognition away from women, at every sporting level, bears that out. It’s shameless misogynistic narcissism, and it’s time we as a society stopped enabling it. Each one of us can start by challenging ourselves on the language we use, by refusing to play along with the charade that biologically male trans people are in any way a subset of women.

We are told it’s courteous to use preferred pronouns and language like “transwomen”, or, even worse, “trans women”. It’s not courteous. It’s a mark of female subjugation, of female people’s rights and needs being subordinated to the wishes of male people.

It’s extremely discourteous, unkind, and harmful to women - female people - when male people are allowed to insert themselves in the category of “woman”. We can see the real world consequences here, as in so many other areas.This is not social progress, it’s the same dynamic as always: male people privileged at the expense of female people. Patriarchy as usual.

OP, huge congratulations on your achievement - the many posts on this thread from grassroots level competitors make it clear just how important these events are to those who take part in them, however far from the elite ranks they are, and clearly placing does matter. I’m sorry the official record of it was stolen from you by the actions of a cheating male and the collusion of a male-favouring sporting body.

LollyLol · 12/05/2022 11:49

I think it really matters. I usually lurk on these boards, increasingly I'm persuaded of that phrase a pp used : " we are being forced to collude in our own oppression".

No matter how lovely this person is as an individual, their body benefits from the advantage of being male. They are not a woman in any of the aspects that should qualify them to compete as a woman. They can adopt some behaviours and norms associated with women, but they will never be a woman.

I feel angry when I read things like this. I'm sorry OP and I wish you could have claimed your third place without fear of reprisal. But i feel you would get a backlash of hatred if you made a fuss. I dont know what the answer is.

Ntsure · 12/05/2022 11:50

She came third not first, so, no her being trans clearly isn’t giving her the great advantage over cis women that you seem to be implying. Also “thought she was an unfortunate woman” shat a horrible thing to say.

Helleofabore · 12/05/2022 11:52

There is an obvious advantage between some body types within the female and male category. Regardless of breast size or height. To bring body shape into the discussion about whether males should have access to female sports though is irrelevant. It is the 'Michael Phelps' or more recently the 'Ian Thorpe's size 17 feet' argument.

The point that is relevant is that while one person within a category may have one combination of physical attributes that favour a sport, that combination has less effect on competitive advantage compared to that of those attributes a male has derived from a male puberty.

There may be a shorter female that can still compete competitively with a tall one but even a 'shorter male' will have physical attributes that may deliver advantage over a taller female.

BellePeppa · 12/05/2022 11:53

I know I shouldn’t laugh but your ‘unfortunate woman’ got me. I think it’s very unfair as trans women can just be someone who is ‘living’ as a woman (ie dressing as one) but has had no ‘work’ done so still retains all their masculine advantages.

lightand · 12/05/2022 11:53

All the talk here is pure hot air.

Until women[or men for that matter if reverse circumstances] races are prepared to boycott[and why they have not done it years ago I do not know], nothing will change in my opinion.
Years too late for mere talk.

Helleofabore · 12/05/2022 11:55

She came third not first, so, no her being trans clearly isn’t giving her the great advantage over cis women that you seem to be implying.

The male had advantage over all the female competitors except two. The point is, that a female did not come third because a transitioned male did. A female missed out.

This is not the gotcha you think.

If a mediocre cyclist rode an electric bike in the Tour de France, did that cyclist have an advantage? If they just came third, did they still have an advantage? Would it have been a fair race despite the electric bike cyclist did not win?

SushiShopSearch · 12/05/2022 11:56

It DOES matter OP. This is grassroots stuff and so important. You need to make this situation known.

BellePeppa · 12/05/2022 11:56

Ntsure · 12/05/2022 11:50

She came third not first, so, no her being trans clearly isn’t giving her the great advantage over cis women that you seem to be implying. Also “thought she was an unfortunate woman” shat a horrible thing to say.

Really, you’ve never seen people who are identifying as a woman who don’t look at all
like a woman or are we supposed to pretend they’re attractive. Be honest, some look ridiculous. I have no bother with genuine cases and would be supportive of anyone I knew who became trans but some just don’t look good.

Artichokeleaves · 12/05/2022 11:57

She came third not first, so, no her being trans clearly isn’t giving her the great advantage over cis women that you seem to be implying.

Oh don't be silly.

This male was 37th in a field of other male competitors and came top three in a female field, which bumped a female out of those three recognised places. At what point will you permit female people to mind about this male person's enjoying their choices and personal freedoms at their expense? Only when not even any elite female is managing to get in any top three space at all?

We're back to 'oh don't be harsh' to people who are biologically male, while be as harsh as you bloody like to people who are biologically female. You cannot do that while still requiring a pretense that sex isn't a thing here, because the thinking is absolutely sex based and what's more it's absolutely favouring males and being prejudiced against equality for females. I won't join in you in pretending I can't see that, or enacting being too virtuous (by favouring males and holding an anti-female prejudice) to name it. If you want to call me names for that, do crack on.

Mandodari · 12/05/2022 11:57

@Softleftpowerstance
If males are allowed compete in female sports,females will be put of sports either though the discomfort of having to use shared sex facilities or because of the futility of competing against those that have a natural advantage over you due to having undergone male puberty. Sex based categories exist to allow for fairness.

NecessaryScene · 12/05/2022 11:58

Each one of us can start by challenging ourselves on the language we use by refusing to play along [...] This is not social progress, it’s the same dynamic as always: male people privileged at the expense of female people. Patriarchy as usual.

Quite right. And note that the sort of people who are often huge "trans rights" advocates would normally be in favour of avoiding harmful language, and of disrupting harmful norms. The thought isn't wrong - what they get wrong is their concept of what is "harmful" - they weaponise the concept as a pure power grab.

But in this case there is very real and tangible harm to women, and it would be totally appropriate to call it out, and refuse to collude in it. We're way past "micro-aggressions" here.

Ntsure · 12/05/2022 11:58

Helleofabore
constnstlt referring to the trans woman as “the male” makes the true reasons behind your objection to her running the face very clear
ditto the “unfortunate woman” comments that were made in the OPs post.
this poor woman was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice, chill out. I assure you she didn’t transition just to come third in fun runs to spite all the cis women.
numsnet is the most awful transphobic place and it’s all so transparent.

Artichokeleaves · 12/05/2022 11:59

How the hell did we as a society slide into a point where enacting prejudice against females has become a signal of superior personal virtue? Confused

LidlMissSunshine · 12/05/2022 11:59

This is called being forced to collude in your own oppression, and yes, it leaves a very bad taste in the mouth. You have been and are being taken advantage of a male person who knows that you cannot name what they are doing to you

100% this.

OP I hope you write to the EAA. Sorry you were cheated out of your rightful podium spot.

Chesneyhawkes1 · 12/05/2022 12:00

Yes it does matter. A lot

PussGirl · 12/05/2022 12:00

The situation with transwomen in women's sport is bonkers.

Even if they have measurably low testosterone, they have still have the advantage of testosterone-fuelled growth throughout puberty, with associated larger body size (usually) plus better-developed muscles & stronger bones.

Grossly unfair for competing women. Proper women, that is.