I was beaten to third place in a running race by a trans woman

[Athleticpotential]

It's a very low key local running race, neither of us are usually contenders, but a combination of circumstances meant the field was such that we finished 3rd and 4th.

The prize is a bottle of cheap wine, it's not about that.

I know her to chat to at races and I like her. It's not common knowledge that she's trans, she enters races as a woman. She is very masculine to look at, but TBH, until recently I thought she was an unfortunate woman, I had no idea.

So in the scheme of things it doesn't matter, but it does....?

Should I "do" anything? What?

[Artichokeleaves]

would you rather that instead of someone entering the fun run just stands and watches from the sidelines because everyone’s too transphobic for her to even take part

Oh the drama....

No one is even suggesting that trans people shouldn't enter fun runs, you know you're inventing that for effect.

No, male people should not expect to disadvantage female people in the pursuit of their own agenda. Nor should they require female people to pretend this isn't what it really is and pretend that it isn't unfair because that's nice for the male person. This is just sexist.

Female people are not props in male lives. They are not everyone's mummy. They are not there to enable and help male people to have happy times. If male people can just respect that regardless of their chosen gender identity there will be no problem.

And if transphobia now means nothing more than 'won't suck up being disadvantaged with a smile if it makes a male person happy' then colour me transphobic. Because I won't. I'm not a masochist. Nor am I surrendered wife. I don't consent. I expect TW to treat me and other females with equality.

[Cloudyz7]

@yellowsuninthesky

I agree. That runner was a very good runner as a man, and she did say in an article for Womens Running magazine that she enters races that have a non-binary category, so she doesn't try to cheat. But the course record should be held by a woman (lots of fast ladies do that course, so it should be easy enough to find one who comes very close to that record anyway). parkrun should have a non-binary category.

A non-binary category makes no sense. The existing categories male/female are for sex. Non-binary is not a sex. Transwomen are male so need to run in male category if they wish to take part.

[FunnyTalks]

would you rather that instead of someone entering the fun run just stands and watches from the sidelines because everyone’s too transphobic for her to even take part

I don't understand how it is transphobic to know that sports are categorised by sex for reasons of safety and fair competition and to ask that a trans person competes in their sex category?

Actual transphobia would be, for example, if the men refused to race against a transwoman.

I also think it is genuinely transphobic to support this ideology that asserts that trans people cannot follow laws and social norms and that everybody involved with a trans person must collude in this. It is the precise opposite of support and encouraging good mental health.

[yellowsuninthesky]

@DerryWitch

@TopKnotch there is a TW who ran parkruns with a male name then with a female name and has the course record at Parke parkrun. Before covid this one was placing “first female” at a few different parkruns. Only pride is at stake but some other woman should have that course record.

I agree. That runner was a very good runner as a man, and she did say in an article for Womens Running magazine that she enters races that have a non-binary category, so she doesn't try to cheat. But the course record should be held by a woman (lots of fast ladies do that course, so it should be easy enough to find one who comes very close to that record anyway). parkrun should have a non-binary category.

[TheOrigRights]

she didn't need to, there's usually a non-binary or mixed category these days

Is there? I race competitively and I don't recall there being anything other than male or female under gender.

[yellowsuninthesky]

would you rather that instead of someone entering the fun run just stands and watches from the sidelines because everyone’s too transphobic for her to even take part

she didn't need to, there's usually a non-binary or mixed category these days so she should have entered that category, though for a very low key charity event they might not have bothered with it.

I won a race (first lady) back in March. I wouldn't have been happy if I'd been pushed back a place by a male bodied person.

Not wanting male-bodied people to compete in womens categories is not transphobic.

[heyhi]

Op did you decide to do anything about this in the end?

[FunnyTalks]

@GenderAtheist

I’m very confused about the idea that’s it’s a risk for Transwomen to compete as men because they would need to be open about being trans. Whereas if they compete as women , their trans status would be secret.

I have never yet see a man in a running shorts and vest who didn’t look like a man. Regardless of whether they identify as a man, a woman or something else. (I have never asked another athlete how they identify so of course I don’t know.)

I fully accept the OPs account that she did not know the other athlete was a man, but that’s not been my experience.

So Its not that Transwomen enter womens events to be secret. They are almost always very clearly men.

A trans woman entering a mens 10k would blend in with everyone else. A transwoman entering a womens 10k would stand out a mile. If they were a competent runner they would get lots and lots of attention, because they would make a very good time and everyone would wonder how a woman they had never heard of with no running experience had suddenly made such a good time.

Its definitely not the thing to do if you just want to quietly run a race like everyone else.

So I can only assume that Transwomen enter womens races to win prizes / times or for personal validation reasons. But it’s really REALLY not to be private.

And it’s not to keep safe and avoid getting beaten up in the middle of their local Parkrun / 10k / half marathon .

No one running knows that the man running ahead of them is a Transwomen until they look at the results. It’s not a safety issue.

This is a good point.

I think a similar issue is exposed by the media reporting male pattern crimes as being by women if the criminal says they are a transwoman. Male pattern crimes are so depressingly common that I don't think people would bat at eyelid at many of the stories. But post a headline including "woman" and people's interest is piqued. Women commit these crimes to a far, far lesser extent (over 90% of sexual and violent crimes are committed by males) so it acts as click-bait. People want to know what woman could have possibly committed a violent or sexual crime.

So the trans guidelines for the media end up drawing far more attention to transwomen who commit male pattern crimes than would happen otherwise. I'm just not convinced this is being pushed by people who care about trans people as much as they care about eroding women's boundaries.

[Helleofabore]

This is Shakira performing, according to a poster on another thread.

It is all about Q Angles....

c.tenor.com/igzQOghIr7gAAAAC/shakira-loca-shakira.gif

Shakira - Hips don't lie!

[GenderAtheist]

I’m very confused about the idea that’s it’s a risk for Transwomen to compete as men because they would need to be open about being trans. Whereas if they compete as women , their trans status would be secret.

I have never yet see a man in a running shorts and vest who didn’t look like a man. Regardless of whether they identify as a man, a woman or something else. (I have never asked another athlete how they identify so of course I don’t know.)

I fully accept the OPs account that she did not know the other athlete was a man, but that’s not been my experience.

So Its not that Transwomen enter womens events to be secret. They are almost always very clearly men.

A trans woman entering a mens 10k would blend in with everyone else. A transwoman entering a womens 10k would stand out a mile. If they were a competent runner they would get lots and lots of attention, because they would make a very good time and everyone would wonder how a woman they had never heard of with no running experience had suddenly made such a good time.

Its definitely not the thing to do if you just want to quietly run a race like everyone else.

So I can only assume that Transwomen enter womens races to win prizes / times or for personal validation reasons. But it’s really REALLY not to be private.

And it’s not to keep safe and avoid getting beaten up in the middle of their local Parkrun / 10k / half marathon .

No one running knows that the man running ahead of them is a Transwomen until they look at the results. It’s not a safety issue.

[Helleofabore]

And they say that MN is not a place for meaningful discussion!! I mean, have a look at ownings last paragraph.

i don’t think your a very nice person at all & what would be something to be brushed off and have a laugh about is a thread all about trans in sport and all that next thing it’ll be the Q angle and how very trans person is stealing medals and places from people that don’t even enter sports or compete

There in amongst the derision and the berating, we get ‘Q angles’! Either owning is a sports expert and therefore maybe they could contribute some expertise and maybe a new slant to discuss on just why females should have to give up fairness for male inclusion.


I mean the swimming coaches of the USA have now also done a review of evidence and come up with the guidance that there is no fairness in male inclusion. You had World Rugby, the Sports Council, then the mess that is the OIC and now the swim coaches. The sporting organisations are admitting it one by one… much to activists worry.

No fairness, just kindness.

(I mean, seriously, what other area of life would subvert fairness in this way???)

Or owning has just shown they do in fact take in what they read on MN.

The hips most certainly don’t lie!!!

And hilariously really, reading that paragraph as a stand alone, the final bit about q angles, medals and team displacement, which are all true, but are being presented by owning as false or meaningless in some way, makes the judgement of the first part of the paragraph like an attempt at sarcasm or can be deemed as equally as untrue.

Just as much as ‘ from people that don’t even enter sports or compete ‘ was another falsehood. So, in amongst those supposed ‘put downs’ was truths, mockingly posed to be either of little consequence despite being true or as propaganda spread by uninformed people just repeating false pseudoscience. (Projection much?)

Because this is attempting to minimise the voices of people who do run or row or whatever but don’t ‘compete’, the many ex-sports competitors, the many coaches, managers and other contributors to sports who don’t ‘compete’, the people qualified in sports science and medicine and other fields, and even, wait for it , the parents of children and young people on a parenting forum discussing how these policies impact their children. Crazy right? That ‘those’ people might have a voice.

Nice attempt owning.

But yeah. Hips don’t lie!

[Whatiswrongwithmyknee]

It's a shame that she did not have the respect not to enter a women's race.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Well I haven’t read anything quite as petty as this in a while but Mumsnet sure knows how to do petty

Yes, because things that hurt women are too trivial to mention. We should all shut up and put up with people cheating in the sports we enjoy.

[Fenella123]

FWIW race results, with names, sex and age category, are normally reported, even for very small events.

The, Ok a question, and not a hypothetical or rhetorical one either, is, why is it a problem for people to be open about the fact that they're trans? What are the major issues besides what I hypothesise is the #1, Viz "some men are violent and will beat up TW or TM"?

[Nellodee]

Some men ARE looking for any reason to beat people up. I can see why a transwoman may not want to be listed as a man to avoid potential conflict. In this case there appears to be a simple no cost solution that satisfies all parties. I don't think it's a woman's job to offer compromise, but this could be a win win, rather than a compromise. There may even be other runners who would like to register but not have their time listed.
If we see solutions that are easy and may satisfy all parties, is the feminist position to keep quiet because only men should solve male problems? Can't we offer some options from the position as a human, even at zero cost to women, because it isn't of direct benefit to women only?

[DameHelena]

@Nellodee

Peregrina, I'm not sure how Parkrun offering transwomen the opportunity to have their times unlisted is asking women to solve male violence.

That was said in response to your comment 'Some men are looking for any reason to beat someone up.'

The discussion isn't about running in a mixed-sex environment, it's about trans-identifying men running against women and taking places from women. Which is what actually happened here.

[WRNSport]

Hi @Athleticpotential and other posters, the Women's Rights Network can offer support to women who are being discriminated against in their own sports. Please feel free to contact us if you need support or would like to add add your story to the increasing number of testimonies we have from women in similar positions. We use these testimonies to challenge governing bodies to look again at their trans inclusion policies.
Go to our website //womensrights.network and you'll find the contact details there.

[Nellodee]

Peregrina, I'm not sure how Parkrun offering transwomen the opportunity to have their times unlisted is asking women to solve male violence.

[Helleofabore]

@Artichokeleaves

Ooh it's a drive by scolding, with no actual reading of the thread.

What a surprise.

Since we are talking sport, ‘par for the course’, innit?

[Artichokeleaves]

Ooh it's a drive by scolding, with no actual reading of the thread.

What a surprise.

[Helleofabore]

Maybe the prize should be a packet of round small baked goods that we cannot post emojis off on this board, Rufus.

[Helleofabore]

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

this is nothing more than mean & spiteful over a 3rd place and a bottle of plonk

youve made a mean and spiteful post and theres not even a bottle of wine in the mix!

Some posters though are known to not need any excuse or prize incentive to berate other posters on the FwR board.

I think it telling, their focus on ‘fun’. And missing the point that some people’s fun is based on having a fair competition to participate.

[Peregrina]

A person too lazy to read even the opening post by the looks of it, never mind the whole thread, but the usual scream of transphobia.

There was nothing to stop this person running, but in the correct class, when the position taken would have been 37th.

All of which has already been said in the previous 400 odd posts.

[RufustheFloralmissingreindeer]

this is nothing more than mean & spiteful over a 3rd place and a bottle of plonk

youve made a mean and spiteful post and theres not even a bottle of wine in the mix!