I was beaten to third place in a running race by a trans woman

[Athleticpotential]

It's a very low key local running race, neither of us are usually contenders, but a combination of circumstances meant the field was such that we finished 3rd and 4th.

The prize is a bottle of cheap wine, it's not about that.

I know her to chat to at races and I like her. It's not common knowledge that she's trans, she enters races as a woman. She is very masculine to look at, but TBH, until recently I thought she was an unfortunate woman, I had no idea.

So in the scheme of things it doesn't matter, but it does....?

Should I "do" anything? What?

No I don't think so. She had blue hair and was leading one of the items on the agenda, which was about diversity.🙄

i am supportive of diversity in the workplace. I also have been known to colour my hair.

believing that others if different race, sex, orientation should be supported in the workplace does not mean I think a man can turn into a woman. Unless her diversity talk was focussed on trans issues?

I could very easily infer that she wasn't GC from the context of the call and her inclusion on it.

I will credit you with the imagination to comprehend how that's possible, if you will credit me with the ability to parse what my own eyes and ears are telling me.

I can see the advantages of an extra transgender/non binary category but that of course assumes every competitor in this category is happy to be 'out'. What happens to people like the person in the OP's post whose sex is a topic of speculation but who chooses to present as female? Is is practicable to ask every woman to show her passport or birth certificate? What happens to trans people with a GRC whose passports and birth certificates record them as female?

There isn't an easy answer to the dilemma faced by the OP. Who will be checking each woman's biological sex before the race begins? The arguments about transgender people in sport are based on balancing inclusion versus fairness. There needs to be discussion about the level to which fairness 'trumps' inclusion. There are clearly some people who think rules about biological sex need to be applied at every level. Others (including me) don't. I'm not saying what should happen, just suggesting that there will be cost and administrative implications for the way sport is organised at community/club level if strict rules about biological sex are applied to mixed sports.

There isn't an easy answer to the dilemma faced by the OP.

If the guidelines are made clear from the time of registration, why is there NOT an easy answer.

Seriously. This constant, 'it's difficult', 'it's complicated' infantilises the transitioned males who keep telling us that no one is denying biological sex.

If the regulations state that males of any gender race with males, why is this 'difficult'. OR make it an open category and a female category and no need to 'out' anyone.

If a trans person cannot be relied on making a mature decision to follow the laws/rules/guidance, what does that say about them?

And what does that say about the people defending them to ignore said laws/rules/guidance?

Why does it matter if it is a fun run with a female category winner or an elite sport? Unless it is an open category or mixed sex event only, if the rule should applies the whole way down. Why should only elite female athletes get the benefit of single sex sports and not every other level? It makes no sense.

Change the categories, or change the rules and regulations.

If trans people cannot abide by those rules and regulations they are not allowed to compete or will have their participation in an event where they should have been excluded under those rules & regulations deleted for past wins.

Again, what other category breaches for sports categories are acceptable at any level?

Are runners normally gracious and supportive when they overtake? I suspect that tells you that she knew she should not have been in this race, but that normally being in a low position doesn't draw attention to it.

I was a runner for many years and yes, loads of people are gracious and supportive- you just need to see the videos at the end of marathons where runners sacrifice their own time to get a fellow athlete across the line.

It doesn't take away from the fact that women's sport is at huge risk at present.

What happens to people like the person in the OP's post whose sex is a topic of speculation but who chooses to present as female?

If you are intent on upholding a deception in your life, then it's kind of up to you to not get involved in something where the deception is inherently going to be an issue, and hence likely to be discovered.

Or if you just want everyone to role play and pretend you're something you're not, it's up to you to not force them into a situation where they have to stop pretending.

As to enforcement, at fun-run level, surely general societal convention is sufficient? People seem to manage to have age categories without a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth about forcing people to show ID.

(The implication often seems to be that males are particularly dishonest and likely to try to break explicit rules. Better to let them in so they don't take the place by force?)

What happens to trans people with a GRC whose passports and birth certificates record them as female?

Well, that doesn't affect transwomen, then. Documentation saying "female" means nothing, so them waving a birth certificate saying "female" isn't going to gain them entry.

But that does mean that women have no way of proving themselves female, so it's a theoretical problem for women. But only a theoretical one. I think women are prepared to put up with that theoretical problem of someone not just believing they're a women if the benefit is keeping men out.

Sorry

'if the rule should applies the whole way down.' should be

if the rule should be in place at organisational level, it applies the whole way down.

I'm afraid whatever colour someone's hair may be I won't be using the pronoun 'meow'. That wouldn't be indulged in a four year old in a reception class, never mind an adult in a workplace.

I'm not saying what should happen, just suggesting that there will be cost and administrative implications for the way sport is organised at community/club level if strict rules about biological sex are applied to mixed sports.

Why? Sport has been happening for years and years, long before gender was anything more than something which described nouns in languages. Sports clubs have had boys, mens, girls, womens categories and somehow it wasn't a problem.

It really is the recycling of the 'how would you police toilets' argument?

I truly think that those who make that type of argument cannot see how they are removing the agency of adults OR that they believe that these adults will make the decision to deliberately go against the laws/rules/regulations/society norms knowing will cause negative effect to females.

She was gracious and supportive when she overtook you, you don't know her well but you like her. She couldn't have known she would end up 3rd when she overtook you (I wonder if she would have slowed down had she known, I wonder if you would have wanted her to).

You sound lovely, and she sounds lovely. Congratulations on doing so well in your race

If this person couldn't have known they would end up 3rd when they overtook, why did they bother to be gracious and supportive?

I wonder if you would have wanted her to

OP has said that she would have preferred that this runner did not compete in the female category, didn't she? That would have meant that OP would not have need to 'want her to' slow down or not.

No, and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I believe that transwomen should compete in the male/open category at all levels of all sports in which there is a separate category for women, and that the organisers of small grassroots races should not be obliged to take on the additional administrative burden of providing an additional category and prizes for them. Unfortunately, we're dependent upon males who want to be regarded as women being honest enough to refrain from racing as women, and I don't know what we can do to enforce that without a clear directive from the national athletics organisations covering the entire sport.

Fuck 'gracious and supportive' - you and all the women who finished after you were cheated. Males should not compete against females at any level.

NecessaryScene, forgive me, I don't follow the argument here:

'What happens to trans people with a GRC whose passports and birth certificates record them as female?'

'Well, that doesn't affect transwomen, then. Documentation saying "female" means nothing, so them waving a birth certificate saying "female" isn't going to gain them entry.'

If someone's passport says female, doesn't that mean they're eligible to race with women? And if they're an ex-man/transwoman with a GRC and a passport/birth certificate saying 'female', that DOES affect transwomen, no, because it affects them...?

Again, forgive me: it's post-lunch and I have very little brain...

And what transwoman is going to choose to race in a category that labels them as "not actually a woman", especially if they believe they are "living as a woman"?

We have just been given the example of a transwoman golfer who does compete in the correct sex category.

Although until recently some golf clubs barred women so a transwoman insisting on playing as a woman would have had to give up, or find another club.

It maybe depends what you count as a 'victory'. Is it a 'victory' to win against a bunch of people whom you know you have an advantage over, or is a victory to get away with deception, or is it a victory to impose yourself on people when you know they are unable or unlikely to protest? Some people even see humiliation and ridicule as a kind of victory, believe it or not.

I agree that it's forced complicity in our own oppression.

If this person has a GRC though I wonder how that would change things?

And if you write to the governing body OP I think it may be worth pointing out that there's now one single sex group and then another for everybody else.

I do think you should write, but like a pp said, from an anonymous email. And explain why you're not giving your name too.

But how do you know this runner is trans? You haven't answered it. If they pass so well that nobody knows, did they tell you?

Jaiyah Saelua is an international level rugby player who plays as a male. I also remember that the Samoan president, Tuilaepa Sailed Malielegaoi did not support Laurel Hubbards inclusion in the Olympics either.

www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/29/jaiyah-saelua-transgender-footballer-interview

There was also a transitioned male skier who also only ever competed as a male.

It will be better once more and more transitioned males compete with their sex to remove any obstacle to their participation.

I wonder why trans women want to run against actual females anyway, the victories are so hollow and they must know that.

People want to socialise with the same people they usually socialise with. This was a fun run so mainly social with only a bit of competition thrown in.

The opportunity for victory was unexpected and the "victory" might well have felt hollow afterwards but refusing the place would have been noticeable and required explanations and fuss. "Today I'll go on a fun run and out myself".

*the formatting today is nuts! I had three paragraphs!

It will be better once more and more transitioned males compete with their sex to remove any obstacle to their participation.

Absolutely this!

This is interesting, tbh.

I mean many of those on this thread who are like "it's so difficult" "no one should have to put themselves" "be kind" "it doesn't matter" are doing so from a place where they have been so heavily socialised as a female that they cannot conceive of a situation in which it would be acceptable to hurt someone's feelings, even if not grounded in reality. I'm not into gratuitously upsetting people, but equally this is not inclusion, this is just pretending.

Ask yourselves, why would anyone not want to celebrate a transwoman running well as a transwoman (I would, so would others in this thread)? Why would it necessarily be awful for someone (who often doesn't pass as female - OP clearly had doubts that she tried to suppress to be kind...) to have to be be out as a trans woman for racing purposes? Why is it better to place as a "woman" in the race but have everyone quietly thinking "that person is absolutely not female and shouldn't really be competing against females as it is unfair"? Why would it be better (and mentally healthy) for someone to live their whole life knowing that everyone else is trying their best to ignore objective truth for their benefit? Inclusion could mean celebrating trans women as trans women.

Ask yourselves, honestly, would a man do this if the situation were reversed and he was beaten by someone who didn't belong in the relevant category? would a trans man think it were acceptable to compete against men knowing they had advantages and would men put up with it?

Out of interest if you're willing to share, in response to the it's so difficult comments, how would you easily address this to make competitive sport both fair and inclusive in the future?