Single sex toilets and muslim women

[peonyred]

Since I am constantly being met with the "be kind" bollox and clearly am not perceived as being "kind", I have started asking people (mostly men and young people) how they feel about the fact that allowing men into women's loos means Muslim women and orthodox Jewish women cannot use them - at all. Therefore they have no access to any public toilets. TW can use unisex, mens or women's but their insistence on their rights to women's loos has shut out a significant number of women. This is without mentioning sexual abuse survivors (which appears not to register) First - am I right about this? Second, is there a Muslim woman out there who (with our backing) takes this to court? Is this the way though or am I kidding myself we'll ever get our spaces back?

Muslim women and Jewish women aren’t a homogenous group, but yes, there are definitely some who without the guarantee of single sex facilities will not use them (or be permitted to).

Thank you, my mistake. I had intended to write "some", and now I can't edit it. But yes, that is my understanding.

It's amazing how quickly the rights of these groups of women have been abandoned by the likes of Labour & the Lib Dems, the NHS, schools when men come calling demanding them.

Yup.

Add to that some Gypsy/Roma/Traveller women.

Some Autistic women. (Many neurodiverse MNetters have talked about this and the impact on them)

Some disabled women.

Women with PTSD and trauma from CSA and VAWG/DA/DV

These women will be excluded from having any facilities, so that male people can live their best lives by selecting from all the facilities.

The characteristic that defines whether you are excluded from access to anything if not sufficiently privileged to be able to access mixed sex spaces, or whether you are a person who gets to choose from everything, is sex. With the male sex being the winner. This would make it male supremacist.

The 'inclusive' and 'intersectional' and 'kind' answer would be to ensure that some facilities were retained as female only while others were mixed sex. But that would only be if the political lobby seeking this actually cared about inclusion and intersectionality instead of seeing those words as leverage meaning 'do what I want'. Hence the huge tantrums in response to the EHRC saying exactly this: that some things must stay female only (because those female people have rights of access too) and mixed sex provision made in addition.

You'll see the lobby response too, probably on this thread before long:

These women don't exist.

Ok, if they exist there's hardly any of them so it doesn't matter.

Ok, but it's their own fault for having patriarchial religions and not getting over their traumas. They should abandon their religions, faiths, cultures and get over their traumas and disabilities and get in mixed sex spaces and get on with it.

Well if they won't put the choices of male born TQ+ people above their own need and equality, then they deserve to be excluded.

Not to mention many women from the older generation - my MIL is in her 70s and would be mortified if she had to share toilet facilities with a male born person.

I was in a meeting a couple of months ago and someone was waxing lyrical about their Daughter’s uni saying how the toilets were all gender neutral and how it was a great step forward and inclusive. A Muslim woman in the same meeting shot him down saying it wasn’t inclusive to her. She can’t use gender neutral toilets in case she is alone with a man. She also mentioned she can’t adjust her headscarf or hair if a man is present. The man looked surprised and apologized as he had just listened to his daughters pov and never considered this before.

Given transwomen are women, and that is recognised by both muslim and jewish faiths, then I dont think your case will fly.

Take Iran for instance - has a very big transgender population and is quite supportive of them.

Transwomen arent women though. Show me the legal definition to prove me wrong, or even medical or scientific. Just one.

Yeah, not so supportive of gay men though are they? Hmm. Why would a society so open and supportive of trans people be so homophobic? Can't imagine why they'd be progressive in one area and not the other.

This is the response I am getting too. I have also explained that older women and women who have been sexually abused find TW in female spaces threatening even if there is no actual threat. That doesn't seem to provoke the response (sadly) that I have seen when I mention (some) Muslim and Jewish women's POV.

Are Iranian tw forced to undergo surgery? As I understand it, most are homosexual men who have to transition or be executed. Is the surgery mandatory or are they permitted to keep their male genitalia and just try to live as women?

Apologies if I've got this completely wrong.

It's not my case, more of a Sunday afternoon musing. It seems to me that some Muslim and Jewish women (see earlier post) really can't use toilets where there is a possibility of men being present. What constitutes a man in Islam of Judaism may be the moot point.

Or indeed any WOMAN who is not a transwoman, i.e., a natural-born woman, who doesn't want a penis owner to hear the rustling of period products, discussing period issues with her first time period daughter, and any other activities that WOMEN attend to during their time in a public facility.
All WOMEN are disadvantaged by this oh so trendy 'inclusion' for various reasons, for some it is a serious breach of their faith / beliefs.
GRRRRR!

How do they become women, @MishyJDI? What it is that changes them from one state of being to another? Is it just by saying so? Otherwise, when and how does the transformation take place? Am genuinely interested as it puzzles me.

I am totally against Unisex toilets .I was out with a friend in her 70s last week ,We stopped at a loo in a small country town 24 hour Unisex! WTF .I have not had experience of this before .A man went in ahead of us we were not comfortable , but had no choice as desperate! Who on earth would be happy to use these facilities in the night FFS!Feel very sorry for these ladies

Yay Michi! Long time no see. How have you been? Not bored of telling us little women off then?

I'm sure you're right though. I mean Iran always strikes me as a country that goes out of its way to ensure natal women have good access and opportunities.

Nope, TW are male. That's what the T bit means.

This does not work for all females. The first job of the female facilities is to be inclusive of all females before worrying about including males too.

But thanks for proving my point above.

The sad thing is that so many of my friends - women in their 50s, 60s, 70s - cannot see any problem with gender neutral toilets. Because the vast majority of men/people with penises/transwomen are 'harmless', and it would be wrong to 'discriminate'.

I've not yet been called bigoted to my face, but I'm sure some of they think it. I fear I may end up losing friends over this as my explanations of the issue fall on deaf ears, and I sense that they are annoyed with me.

How about you just focus on the fact that women don’t want to share toilets with people who aren’t women.

Why try and strengthen your argument when it’s strong enough?

Also maybe look at religions not respecting human rights?

There is no reason why a muslim woman can’t take a piss in a cubicle like the rest of the female species.

😄

I'm that age and agree with you as most people I know would

@MishyJDI so you support transition (mainly m2f) as a means of erasing homosexuality. Okay.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/02/22/iran-gay-forced-gender-reassignment-surgery-the-sun/

How would you actually police this, in a realistic sense? The assumption seems to be that all trans women look like men in dresses, but a) that’s a gross mindset and b)there have been several occasions where I have noticed someone in women’s toilets who are maybe a little more ‘masculine’ in build or face shape but I genuinely had no idea if they were trans or just a more square built female. I didn’t give it much thought cause I personally don’t care. But do you want to inspect every person to see if they have a penis? That’s madness.