Single sex spaces

[Notcreativeatall]

Genuine question here
is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing trans people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the trans people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

Think you will get mixed responses

But also I have found that the few lower body surgical people I have come across ( 1 IRL rest online) are not after single sex space access - they seem to be much more self aware

"Fully transitioned" means taking cross sex hormones and having had surgery to remove/redesign genitalia? That doesn't make the person their "chosen sex". It doesn't alter the fact that, in the case of a transwoman, they are male and present the same risk to women as any other male.

It’s not as simple as that. It’s not solely about ‘threat’, but about female dignity and comfort, which is both a generally recognised need, and a highly subjective concern.

So while I might be very comfortable sharing a bathroom with a male person who has had full reassignment surgery (and not, maybe, with someone male who hasn’t), I might still not feel comfortable accepting a full body search in a police station from two such people. Or I might be.

The only clear line - the only fair line - has to be natal sex. It’s immutable. There is no reason a medical venue can’t co-operate with my request for a female person to (for example) do a cervical or breast examination, if that’s what makes me comfortable, and no detriment to the male person being named as a natal male, even if they have had surgery to invert their penis.

You might want to look here or the Break It Down For Me thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4521371-New-visitors-start-here

Even if people did feel differently about the fully transitioned, How could you tell who had had bottom surgery without a strip search on entrance?
So Its a no from me, even if full surgery has been preformed!

I think we have seen what happens when you make exceptions. Let one in let them all in.

Has to be a blanket no.
Any anger should be aimed at those who indulged and mislead . Told them that they would be able to do it. Amd not the men and women upholding their legal right to sex segregated spaces .

A bloke with hormone treatment/surgery is still a bloke. And how do I know the status of a man if he's next to me in the M&S changing rooms? He's still a man who is probably stronger than me. He will still be a risk that I can't quantity. Being a trans identifying male doesn't mean that man respects women and girls. When I am in a changing room with women I don't have to consider these risks - a woman is not going to harm me. Target men and tell them to be respectful of trans identifying males.

I don't think that having your genitalia surgically altered stops a man from being a man so no

I'm not sure if I can detangle my anger about the over-reach bullying and plain nonsense coming from TRAs from this issue.

My stance was that I would have had no problem with fully transitioned transwomen in women's spaces. But I don't know how we get back to where we were before transgenderism exploded. As a PP said, how do we even know who has fully transitioned? They can get a GRC without going the whole hog. I do have huge empathy for trans people who actually have dysphoria. But I also have huge empathy for vulnerable women. Urrrgh I dunno!

is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing tarns people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the tarns people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

It's not just about safety, it's about women's privacy and dignity, and the realities of the female sex class. Opinions on this differ.

If you’d asked me 5-10 years ago, I would have said it was probably ok. I mean, they’re making an effort, probably desperately want to blend in etc. Wouldn't have worried about it too much.
However, TRAs have totally changed my mind and have absolutely thrown genuine trans people under the bus. Now I see that if you start making allowances, it’s just a few short steps to Danielle Muscato and men in women’s prisons. So my stance has now hardened and I vehemently support single sex spaces, services and sports.
I’m under no illusion that some old school trans people are probably sharing women’s loos with me and I do have sympathy for them.

No men in women's single sex spaces. No exceptions. It is not up to women to trust that men who use our single sex spaces are surgically altered. The safest thing is to keep these service single sex.

Lots of trans-identified males post on social media about how they love to defile women's toilets. (And how they might deal with any woman who might object.)

So, even if they can't rape you, these people still regard single-sex spaces as spaces to be defiled.

So, no male bodies in female spaces.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee

I don't think that having your genitalia surgically altered stops a man from being a man so no

Well exactly - think of a soldier injured in action being told he now qualifies as a lady . Disgusting

There's also the possibility of a man who isn't trans, and has no interest in becoming so, infiltrating a women-only space for nefarious reasons, then claiming to be trans if challenged.

@Ozgirl75

If you’d asked me 5-10 years ago, I would have said it was probably ok. I mean, they’re making an effort, probably desperately want to blend in etc. Wouldn't have worried about it too much. However, TRAs have totally changed my mind and have absolutely thrown genuine trans people under the bus. Now I see that if you start making allowances, it’s just a few short steps to Danielle Muscato and men in women’s prisons. So my stance has now hardened and I vehemently support single sex spaces, services and sports. I’m under no illusion that some old school trans people are probably sharing women’s loos with me and I do have sympathy for them.

This. I’m pretty sure if my work hired a trans person, they would be professional and respectable and I wouldn’t have an issue seeing them if a trans woman in the women’s bathrooms which have cubicles of course. Spaces where nudity and or physical contact are typical eg Changing rooms are a step up from that, and prisons and hospitals where women are in a vulnerable position are a step up again.

Not respectable! Respectful, as in of women and people in general. Ie a perfectly normal person.

Just wanted to re-up a classic and (I hope) prescient Barracker post about how we ended up asserting absolute boundaries because of the trespass and encroachment.

The landscape is changing. I can't say how long it will take, but people are starting to assert absolute boundaries and reject the legal and ethical principle that a person can change from male to female and vice versa.

This will not reverse. It will grow, and it will reach an inevitable conclusion. The UK is looking very likely to be the fulcrum of change, and then the balance will shift back everywhere.

You can't stop this. All you can do is look to the future. It would be in your best interests to view this short period of history where we as a society mistakenly allowed a lie to temporarily be forced upon others, as a short-lived and unsustainable 'faux-solution' to a problem. That faux solution will be replaced with something else based upon a real and ethical foundation, and society will no longer accept 'sex changes' in any way.

Your best bet is to align yourself with what is coming. That so called [legal fiction] sex changes are a finite blip in history, that they obstruct a real solution to inequality, and that they should be self limiting, and should be drawn to a close.

If you support the end of this era of forced pretending, and work with those who are ushering in a new era of real women's rights, then I think it is possible that the few individuals who have already gained legal recognition as the opposite sex will continue to be honoured as their legal status. A grandfather clause is a real possibility, one that accepts those men are a product of their time, but draws a line behind them and does perpetuate the problem further.

I think this is a concession that might be negotiated from women, perhaps, if we saw that the door was finally closing on the redefinition of women and their rights.

It's just my opinion. But this is where I think we'll end up.

Whether that grandfather clause will come to pass or not I cant know.

I know what I would do in your shoes. And it isn't doubling down on 'I'm prepared to negotiate women's own boundaries with them'. It's 'I get it. It needs to stop now. Where do I go from here' [Italics my addition for clarity.}

sex is a genotype, gender is an identity. "single sex spaces", clues in the name.

It's been tried. It led to the mess we're in where women have been excluded, unable to access services and raped. It cannot be gatekept, the GRA was exactly that compromise. Unfortunately the piss has been very, very, very thoroughly taken.

And this still looks at it from the point of view of the needs of the male person: one male person regardless of identity, degree of transition and lovely personality still excludes some females from the female only space. Those females should not lose access to anything so that male people can have more choice of space. The massive majority of those females will have protected characteristics equally important to the the one of the male. The first job of female only spaces is to be inclusive of all females .

No. No male person should be using female spaces.

The obvious answer is third spaces, and making male spaces more inclusive.

It’s not as simple as that. It’s not solely about ‘threat’, but about female dignity and comfort, which is both a generally recognised need, and a highly subjective concern.

and religion and culture, we have equal rights in the UK, the Koran doesnt speak about bottom surgery it says men and women.

@Wimbunds

A bloke with hormone treatment/surgery is still a bloke. And how do I know the status of a man if he's next to me in the M&S changing rooms? He's still a man who is probably stronger than me. He will still be a risk that I can't quantity. Being a trans identifying male doesn't mean that man respects women and girls. When I am in a changing room with women I don't have to consider these risks - a woman is not going to harm me. Target men and tell them to be respectful of trans identifying males.

and even if they were going to harm you, your more likely to be able to hold your own as they (women) are no going to be 15%+ stronger then you.

I am female I have been sexually harassed by both men and women, one I found annoying the other frightening, can you guess which one was which?

@Ozgirl75

If you’d asked me 5-10 years ago, I would have said it was probably ok. I mean, they’re making an effort, probably desperately want to blend in etc. Wouldn't have worried about it too much. However, TRAs have totally changed my mind and have absolutely thrown genuine trans people under the bus. Now I see that if you start making allowances, it’s just a few short steps to Danielle Muscato and men in women’s prisons. So my stance has now hardened and I vehemently support single sex spaces, services and sports. I’m under no illusion that some old school trans people are probably sharing women’s loos with me and I do have sympathy for them.

Same. This was raised on Twitter, can't remember who by now but along the lines of if they've had full GRS after years of presentation should they be allowed?

A lot of the answers were like this, years ago I would have said yes but now I say no. Activists took the piss big time, Stonewall saw a new cash cow, and together they ruined it for everyone.

My point was that a lot of the arguments for single sex spaces do discuss the threat that men create either from the fact that men are more likely to assault women than female or the fact that having a different body creates.
I do think the whole self ID thing has changed things- not just because it attempts to include people with penises as women- massively expands the population
I just feel somewhat conflicted as a friend of mine is trans and when we meet socially i could no more suggest that Annie goes to a male toilet/gets kicked out of the female than i could insist on using male pronouns- its like we as a group ascribe to the fiction that Annie is female but it would just seem petty -probably similar to timeisnotaline at work - but i have no real reason to know that Annie has had the surgery
I am just conflicted- i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?

I am just conflicted- i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?

Recognise my cognitive dissonance is created by my emotions in the context of an individual and that that would never be an appropriate basis for legislation or making decisions on behalf of other women.

Safeguarding is not yours to give away.