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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Single sex spaces

233 replies

Notcreativeatall · 07/04/2022 09:42

Genuine question here
is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing trans people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the trans people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

OP posts:
InTheResistance · 07/04/2022 17:04

@Notcreativeatall

My point was that a lot of the arguments for single sex spaces do discuss the threat that men create either from the fact that men are more likely to assault women than female or the fact that having a different body creates. I do think the whole self ID thing has changed things- not just because it attempts to include people with penises as women- massively expands the population I just feel somewhat conflicted as a friend of mine is trans and when we meet socially i could no more suggest that Annie goes to a male toilet/gets kicked out of the female than i could insist on using male pronouns- its like we as a group ascribe to the fiction that Annie is female but it would just seem petty -probably similar to timeisnotaline at work - but i have no real reason to know that Annie has had the surgery I am just conflicted- i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?
I would say the difference there is that it's someone you know and trust but that's not the case for everyone else. So although you could/would never ask Annie to use the male toilets I suppose the question is... how would you react if a stranger did? Would you say they are transphobic and she had every right to be there? (I assume that's the reaction she would be expecting) or say something along the lines of "look Annie, I don't mind you being in here because we know each other but I completely get why someone else would feel uncomfortable with it" Legislation can't take account of personal relationships so has to take the stranger's point of view IMO. Just like I don't mind my DH being in a changing room with me but don't expect every other woman to put up with it, IYSWIM?
trishaplateypus · 07/04/2022 17:08

I would say the difference there is that it's someone you know and trust but that's not the case for everyone else. So although you could/would never ask Annie to use the male toilets I suppose the question is... how would you react if a stranger did?

The OP shouldn't be waiting for a stranger to tell her friend not to use our spaces, it's her moral responsibility to tell him herself NOW!

Dimenw · 07/04/2022 17:27

@trishaplateypus

I feel that I now want to go right back to separate spaces, which for those few who are genuinely dysphoric is a real shame.

Boohoo, they should have got their house in order in the first place and not left it to women to sort out.

My heart bleeds.

Read the rest of my post. I don't want men in women's spaces. I still feel sorry for people with gender dysphoria. Once upon a time I would turn a blind eye, many of us did. Now I wouldn't. And to answer another pp, of course women's safety should take precedence. I'm beyond incandescent at what is happening. I still feel sorry for people with dysphoria. The one doesn't cancel out the other, I can still feel rage, anger and sorrow at the way women are being sacrificed at the altar of men's special feelings.
LK1972 · 07/04/2022 17:33

Hmm, I can see why it would be incredibly hard for OP to raise with her friend, by herself. Only possible in a group, and if all other females agree. And it would feel like taking something away from Annie, but actually Annie never had that right. Really sad state, and hopefully there will be gender-neutral option for Annie, and if there isn't I will support Annie's right to campaign for one. But until then, Annie's needs don't overwrite mine, and Annie should use male spaces.

Whatwouldscullydo · 07/04/2022 18:23

I still feel sorry for people with dysphoria

Thing is family and friends don't care about this or theyd not indulged it.. Men kick the males out the man Box and spaces together.

They adults suffering from it have also had their whole lives to learn to cope with it in a way that reflects reality and they haven't.

Yet despite the fact we are carrying the women who de transition . We are carrying the children being indoctrinated. We are trying to fight for ourselves on top. I think it's ok to say no we won't absorb or make dysphoric males our problem.too, as the solution is to our own detriment. Our own safety amd is consistently used to emotionally blackmail us into doing so.

Fairislefandango · 07/04/2022 18:27

I still feel sorry for people with dysphoria.

So do I... in exactly the same way that I feel sorry for anorexics who think they're fat. The answer is not to agree with them that they're fat and give them liposuction or enrol them in weight loss clubs.

Toseland · 07/04/2022 19:33

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trishaplateypus · 07/04/2022 19:46

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Dimenw · 07/04/2022 20:40

I think it's ok to say we won't make dysphoric males our problem too
So do I

Cyw2018 · 07/04/2022 20:55

I think having 'degrees' of transition is unethical.

What if someone is an anaesthetic risk due to other medical conditions and don't go for 'bottom surgery' as a result, does that mean they can never be deemed as 'real' as another trans person?

What if someone has a history of a hormone mediated cancer, and therefore would be putting their life at signisficant risk by taking hormone therapy, does that mean they can never be deemed as 'real' as another trans person?

Anything that pressures anyone into medical treatment, including legislation, is ethically unacceptable.

And this is aside from the fact that they will ALWAYS be the sex they were born, with the same chromosomes, the same muscoloskeletal structure and the same pubertal benefits/ disadvantages.

WhereYouLeftIt · 07/04/2022 21:07

@Cyw2018, I can't say I really consider there to be " 'degrees' of transition", only degrees of self-mutilation. Submitting yourself to brutal surgery could be seen as an indication of commitment (as opposed to the paint-my-nails-and-call-me-Brenda types) but since nothing makes a male into a female, their 'transition' is as much a fiction as Brenda's.

Cyw2018 · 07/04/2022 21:15

[quote WhereYouLeftIt]@Cyw2018, I can't say I really consider there to be " 'degrees' of transition", only degrees of self-mutilation. Submitting yourself to brutal surgery could be seen as an indication of commitment (as opposed to the paint-my-nails-and-call-me-Brenda types) but since nothing makes a male into a female, their 'transition' is as much a fiction as Brenda's.[/quote]
Well exactly but it shows the whole ridicolous charade for what it is, including the exisiting GRC rules. How can a progressive amount of exposure to unnatural hormones and surgical mutilation make you more or less worthy of certification of something you are not, especially as some individuals will be ineligible for those treatments for medical reasons completely seperate from their gender dysphoria.

Nobody can change sex and they never have been able to.

StopStartStop · 07/04/2022 21:31

No. XX in the Ladies, XY in the Gents, no matter what you're wearing, how you 'feel', how much you'd get off on being with your preferred (ie pretend) sex or how surprising are your dsds.

Notcreativeatall · 08/04/2022 00:09

It is an odd situation- Annie officially introduced to the group as Annie- no official acknowledgement that Annie is really Bert - its not really obvious Annie looks relatively female so it only became noticeable when Annie speaks (initially Annie used to whisper to hide her voice).
Everyone in the group refers to Annie as she/her- although we slip up (you'll often get someone saying-- "he said that")- As we all got o know each other a bit more its all sort of unofficially acknowledged- Annie will talk about aspects of her transition/changes etc.
I just cannot see myself on Day 1 seeing Annie in the pub toilets saying you shouldn't be here - the toilets are big/all cubicled obviously and it just doesn't feel like an invasion of private space. I was trying to think how I'd feel if Annie was in a changing room with me - but its just never going to happen - i also agree with the poster who said it feels different when you know the person.
Has anyone actually said to a friend that they shouldn't be in those toilets?

OP posts:
Giggorata · 08/04/2022 03:06

My “Annie” is no longer alive. We were close friends and at the time, we all accepted her as post op female. Went to the loos together, camping in the same tent, even joked about her not wearing a bra, with her replying that her breasts were younger than the rest of her and wouldn’t droop for a while yet.
Now, like Ozgirl75, my attitude has hardened along with the rise of trans activism, the outrageous demands, threats and the sheer Apples Grapes Pears of most of them.
This would have been the hardest conversation to have with my dear mild Annie but I am that incensed with the whole bloody business that I would have done it.

rolllan · 08/04/2022 03:55

I don't agree with single sex spaces overall, but I think every person-whoever they are has a right to a private space, toilet or changing cubicle where no one else is involved so doesn't need to be an issue for anyone else at all

Crcohetmonster · 08/04/2022 05:50

@rollan why do you not agree with single sex spaces?

Whatwouldscullydo · 08/04/2022 06:34

I just cannot see myself on Day 1 seeing Annie in the pub toilets saying you shouldn't be here - the toilets are big/all cubicled obviously and it just doesn't feel like an invasion of private space. I was trying to think how I'd feel if Annie was in a changing room with me - but its just never going to happen - i also agree with the poster who said it feels different when you know the person
Has anyone actually said to a friend that they shouldn't be in those toilets?

But why are you worrying about Annie when Annie isn't worrying about you or any other women that They forcing to use mixed sex spaces without consent from the women in there.

Why? Why is Annie deserving of something that they aren't allowing anyone else to have?

I would not waste a second feeling guilty about Annie using a space they presumably used their whole lives without issue. Annie certainly has no qualms about using their male entitlement

Notcreativeatall · 08/04/2022 07:07

*I would not waste a second feeling guilty about Annie"
really- you would consciously hurt someone directly and wouldn't feel concerned?

OP posts:
Whatwouldscullydo · 08/04/2022 07:12

If reality hurts them then it's not on everyone else to pretend it doesn't exist.

Why are you allowing yourself to be kept hostage by someone else's emotions.

Whatwouldscullydo · 08/04/2022 07:14

And no i would not worry abiut hurting someone who didn't think the rules around consent apply to them.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 08/04/2022 07:17

@Notcreativeatall

*I would not waste a second feeling guilty about Annie" really- you would consciously hurt someone directly and wouldn't feel concerned?
How concerned is Annie about the feelings of women in the single sex spaces they have chosen to use?

Why do Annie’s feelings of hurt count more?

Notcreativeatall · 08/04/2022 08:18

Because I don't know that anyone is actually hurt/concerned by it.

i know a lot of people are concerned by the thin end of the wedge argument/ risk of violence/risk of rape - but that feels very theoretical versus telling an actual person to go to different toilets!

I'm not a hostage of anyones emotions- i am just generally not inclined to hurt people unnecessarily. I could say the same about the theoretical women who would be hurt by Annie going in the women's toilets- why should i be a hostage to their feelings

OP posts:
Artichokeleaves · 08/04/2022 08:39

@Notcreativeatall

Because I don't know that anyone is actually hurt/concerned by it.

i know a lot of people are concerned by the thin end of the wedge argument/ risk of violence/risk of rape - but that feels very theoretical versus telling an actual person to go to different toilets!

I'm not a hostage of anyones emotions- i am just generally not inclined to hurt people unnecessarily. I could say the same about the theoretical women who would be hurt by Annie going in the women's toilets- why should i be a hostage to their feelings

Because Annie's wish to have options means the female people they displace have nothing at all.

This is the issue: it cannot be all about individual need and that's the attitude that's got us in this mess: I want x and I deserve x and feel I need x and so fuck everyone else they don't matter like what I do.

And this is what has led to females being excluded from any provision at all, no rape support, no escape from dangerous relationships, raped on hospital wards and in prisons by male people with this feeling of entitlement and the power to enforce it.

I hear what you're saying, I would find it almost impossible to say this to a friend, and this is why it cannot be about personal feelings and not my Nigel and a special exception for x who is lovely and very feminine and we don't mind.... (and we just won't look at those lovely, vulnerable, equally emotive anecdote females who just had to walk out and leave this space and abandon going to the loo at all so we could indulge our niceness....)

This is the thing. Behind all the niceness on the surface is something very nasty very quietly going on, but because it's only happening to females it's supposedly ok to shhh, don't mention it, don't look. It's not like those females have much power or a voice or very very rich charities advancing their causes or get invited to cosy cups of tea with government committees, or get to go be expensively paid trainers who can steer whole national services into being their enablers. And this is what has happened.

And I have the trans friend, (one of several) who did eventually push me to having to put up a boundary with them, I won't go into about what, and then shouted transphobia at me and made life very difficult. But not everything can always be about the trans person, or revolve around them. They are not more important than everyone else.

We are at a point where boundaries are having to be drawn very strongly by females. Because this was forced on females without consent, without the faintest conscience or consideration, and this experiment by males for males has gone hideously wrong for females. That male people are ok with this and would like to continue having what they want while it continues to be hideous for females? That's kind of exactly in a nutshell why females need legally gatekept accessible spaces away from them. That respect and equality isn't going to be given voluntarily, this lobby has no fucks to give about females. They are also now heavily relying on females to be so sorry for poor TW and the narrative of how hard it is for them as this policy starts to be re balanced that they continue to let.... any male who wants to do whatever they want regardless of impact on females.

Unfortunately other people's boundaries aren't negotiable on whether or not you like them, and how inconvenient they are to you doing what you want to do.

I have a lot of sympathy, I really do. I could not say to a friend no, don't use this space use that one - but I would not find it easy that they put me in this position of choosing between males and females with females losing, I would not find it easy to watch them show this disregard for females, and I would not want to be part of or in any way support their walking into a space to exercise meeting their own needs at the expense of the females in that space. It would affect how I felt about them.

This needs to come through law with provision of mixed sex spaces alongside female only. That part is easy, it solves all the issues. The problem will then be a firm boundary on the female only space that isn't up for debate or rearranging based on how a male person feels about it. Because the bottom line here is that no one ever considers or cares about those female people, only that male people never have to feel sad or be excluded or not have their needs met in the way that they prefer. That's the massive imbalance that has to be fixed. And the first resort is still to lean on female people's sympathies and consideration and other values they give which are not reciprocated, to let their boundaries down in male favour.

No. Female people matter equally in this.

DameHelena · 08/04/2022 08:44

Artichokeleaves, I couldn't agree more.

Notcreative, the very fact that it all 'feels very theoretical versus telling an actual person to go to different toilets' is the reason why there has to be a clear, no-exceptions rule. Things DO get messy if they're approached on a personal level, and with something that affects half the population, it has to be handled on a population level.

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