Single sex spaces

[Notcreativeatall]

Genuine question here
is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing trans people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the trans people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

A man is a man no matter what he thinks he is or does to himself. Males should not be in female spaces.

in the situation there isn’t it takes into consideration the distress it would cause a transwoman to use the men’s,

But fails to take into consideration the distress it would cause potentially several females in that space to have to leave and go without any access to anything so that the TW doesn't have to feel distressed.

Sexist as fuck.

Females are told by the trans lobby that if they choose to self exclude from the women's provision because males are choosing to use it due to their gender identity that's their problem. I'm afraid I therefore fail to see why male people self excluding from the male provision deserve greater sympathy and consideration than the lobby shows to females. Either everyone's distress matters equally or no one's does.

Or are we really in the position of trying to work out how many females in distress outweigh one distressed male?

If there are female toilets there are male toilets. Impact is non existent beyond a male being told no and that's something toddlers and dogs can handle so adult males should understand easily.

@Notcreativeatall what say you about my rights, the schoolgirls's rights andy colleague's rights?

You seem to be a tad quiet on my conundrum.

No. If you let some men in you make it impossible to keep any men out.

@Artichokeleaves

in the situation there isn’t it takes into consideration the distress it would cause a transwoman to use the men’s,

But fails to take into consideration the distress it would cause potentially several females in that space to have to leave and go without any access to anything so that the TW doesn't have to feel distressed.

Sexist as fuck.

Females are told by the trans lobby that if they choose to self exclude from the women's provision because males are choosing to use it due to their gender identity that's their problem. I'm afraid I therefore fail to see why male people self excluding from the male provision deserve greater sympathy and consideration than the lobby shows to females. Either everyone's distress matters equally or no one's does.

Or are we really in the position of trying to work out how many females in distress outweigh one distressed male?

That is exactly the position we are in and always have been, legally. That’s where the ‘proportional’ part comes in. (Screenshot for explanation of proportion, the example itself in the screenshot is a different one)

@Thelnebriati

No. If you let some men in you make it impossible to keep any men out.

Zero tolerance is what's needed, it's the only way to keep women and children safe from harm.

No biological males allowed in female safe spaces.

Thanks, timeis, I totally appreciate that many gender-neutral toilets may be perfectly acceptable to the majority, ie full length walls, wash basins etc, but still not to all women. The gender-neutral options offered as addition, not replacement, seems a reasonable way forward. I felt incredibly uncomfortable waiting in the queue in gender-neutral space, as it was just me and some random bloke, and there was no other option. Don't think that's acceptable really, as I have hyper-vigilance towards men, like many many other women, due to my 'lived experience'.

I agree they aren’t acceptable to all women, and it would be great if all new buildings with toilet blocks were required to have a 3rd block - it would simplify things enormously. I really was just communicating what I’m pretty sure the Act lays out. There’s no benefit to misinterpreting it in women’s favour, just as some lobby groups have long been seriously misinterpreting/misstating / lying about what it says that’s supportive of opening all women’s spaces to both sexes.
I

@Notcreativeatall

Genuine question here is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing trans people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the trans people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

What do you mean by “Fully transitioned” and “ No longer a threat? “. What proof would be required ?

What kinds of threats do biological males represent to women and children and how would whatever you mean as “ Fully transitioned “ remove that threat ?

What Research evidence is there that males who have “ Fully transitioned” are less dangerous that other men ?

How would such a male prove his status to all the women and children around him who may be afraid?

What about the women who object to men in woman’s safe spaces for other reasons than fear eg religious or cultural reasons, privacy and dignity ?

No. After all this shit, it needs to be a clear, hard no. Third spaces are required.

@LK1972

Thanks, timeis, I totally appreciate that many gender-neutral toilets may be perfectly acceptable to the majority, ie full length walls, wash basins etc, but still not to all women. The gender-neutral options offered as addition, not replacement, seems a reasonable way forward. I felt incredibly uncomfortable waiting in the queue in gender-neutral space, as it was just me and some random bloke, and there was no other option. Don't think that's acceptable really, as I have hyper-vigilance towards men, like many many other women, due to my 'lived experience'.

I walked into a gender neutral toilet and there were just three men in there in a small space. I felt a real sense of panic and just spun around and walked out as quickly as I could. Not ok at all.

They could have built loads of additional third spaces in the time we've been talking about it on FWR. Stonewall could have flexed its considerable fundraising muscle power and I'm sure lots of us on here would have contributed. I guess I had better keep my thoughts on why there's no sign of it happening to myself.

@ScreamingMeMe

I'm not sure if I can detangle my anger about the over-reach bullying and plain nonsense coming from TRAs from this issue.

My stance was that I would have had no problem with fully transitioned transwomen in women's spaces. But I don't know how we get back to where we were before transgenderism exploded. As a PP said, how do we even know who has fully transitioned? They can get a GRC without going the whole hog. I do have huge empathy for trans people who actually have dysphoria. But I also have huge empathy for vulnerable women. Urrrgh I dunno!

This ^ I feel that I now want to go right back to separate spaces, which for those few who are genuinely dysphoric is a real shame. We let the door open a tiny crack to let those few in, and all the entitled types demanding "Let us in or else" have barged their way in behind them, and don't seem too bothered at who gets trampled in the rush.

What do you mean by “Fully transitioned” and “ No longer a threat? “. What proof would be required ?

Once a man, always a man and a danger to women and girls. They should NOT be allowed in our safe spaces and now the public is coming round this is what we should push for.

I feel that I now want to go right back to separate spaces, which for those few who are genuinely dysphoric is a real shame.

Boohoo, they should have got their house in order in the first place and not left it to women to sort out.

My heart bleeds.

Timesis, I read this thread https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1510971866944577542.html, and in s.15/16 it appears to suggest that the female-only toilets would also likely be able to clear the legitimacy and proportionality test in excluding males, if 1) male does not possess GRC, and/or 2) there are gender-neutral options available and 'routinely used'. This is currently in guidance form, and will need test cases to confirm. I am not trying to mislead or encourage anyone to test these guidelines, I'm working up a courage to be a test case if necessary

which for those few who are genuinely dysphoric is a real shame.

The excluded women and the women raped in pursuit of this experiment in improving male best lives probably also feel their experience is a real shame.

No. Men need to move over & make space for their more feminine brethren.

If you let any males in then it's a mixed sex space regardless of if that male is gay, effeminate, has lost his genitals in an accident or due to surgery etc etc mixed sex spaces exclude many women & are less safe.

Could an organisation that's been given the wrong advice by Stonewall sue them? It's so wild that they have been able to get away with literally peddling lies for years.

@Artichokeleaves

which for those few who are genuinely dysphoric is a real shame.

The excluded women and the women raped in pursuit of this experiment in improving male best lives probably also feel their experience is a real shame.

Yes. It's a shock to read so many posts by women for whom ingrained socialisation is so overpowering and innate that they can not see how entitled it is for men and for transwomen to set out the preconditions of women's dignity and privacy. It's a stark realisation that women's rights are regarded by them as a social fiction, something that was gifted and can be removed whenever it's convenient and at the whim of the of those who conferred that indulgence (or their representatives).

Gibbons, totally agree, it's as simple as 'mixed sex spaces exclude many women and are less safe', provably. So if these are the only option then some female service users are discriminated against (unless single loo in small venue/other reasonable exemptions). And all men , even nice ones , the ones we know and trust, should be out of female spaces-even though OP is trying to distinguish here, she also mentions that she doesn't know if her friend does or does not still have a penis. And why should she? Annie just should not be in female loo, then no one will give a flying fig for her genitalia .

Could an organisation that's been given the wrong advice by Stonewall sue them? It's so wild that they have been able to get away with literally peddling lies for years

There will be a get out clause in the paperwork. Implement at your own risk kinda thing. They will be completely on their own dealing with the financial fall out and the customer / staff complaints and law suits.

Amd remember . Schools constantly request money for supplies. Ask for donations of clothes , tissues, loo.roll, ours had an amazon wishlist fir class Xmas contributions should parents desire it. That's how strapped fir cash schools are. I paid for all their scissors etc

Yet there is always money to pay stonewall and build mix sex toilets and despite the kids with a dedicated TA having to share them due to staffing issues/funding, you will.also find staff appear out of no where to supervise these toilets too.

No. No one born male. No one with xy. Someone with full surgery is still biologically a male. So no.. no exceptions period.

Give them an inch and they will take a mile. So absolutely no exceptions. Biological women only! Xx only. Female only means female only.

I just feel somewhat conflicted as a friend of mine is trans and when we meet socially i could no more suggest that Annie goes to a male toilet/gets kicked out of the female than i could insist on using male pronouns- its like we as a group ascribe to the fiction that Annie is female but it would just seem petty -probably similar totimeisnotalineat work - but i have no real reason to know that Annie has had the surgery
I am just conflicted- i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?

Well that's why laws about whole groups shouldn't be based on anecdotal evidence or on individual people's personal feelings about their friends!