Single sex spaces

[Notcreativeatall]

Genuine question here
is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing trans people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the trans people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

@Helleofabore

I've never told anyone and even my birth certificate now reads correctly

No. Your birth certificate has been changed to suit what you want it to reflect.

It does not reflect the facts. You are male and will always be male.

This, we cannot allow any XY in the toilets, you give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

It's zero tolerance from here on in I'm afraid and you're just going to have to get used to it.

I don't understand how we got here. All I've ever wanted was to exist; to be safe, to be normal. I've never hurt anyone.

We have been through this quite in depth in other threads last year with you Butterfly. May I suggest that Advanced search is handy.

We child transitioners have been maligned and misunderstood pariahs all our lives, living invisible fear-filled trauma-wracked lives, and with a single - not even legally binding - document, the government has just thrown us to the wolves entirely.

And again, as was discussed in great depth with you last year. No women have ever recalled being asked if it was ever ok for males to be allowed access into their spaces.

Can I ask, since last year and the discussions you were involved in, have you started to campaign for alternative spaces? Or are you going to use emotional manipulation again to try to convince women to allow you to continue to access female only single sex spaces?

Hang on - men have made it unsafe for this person to use male toilets, and they're angry at us?

I'm not accepting that, sorry. Fight against the male violence and entitlement that make everyone's lives worse.

Well, quite Prelate

I am quite looking forward to all the campaigning that this poster has done over the past few months to get safe spaces for all trans people that doesn't impact in any way on female single sex spaces. That also does include 'pulling the ladder up' which I believe that pp was also discussing.

It will be great to hear about it.

[quote Dimenw]@Runningupthecurtains you are right of course. Third spaces should have been the focus. Not women's spaces.[/quote]
Surely tackling male violence would have been the priority, so that males whatever they wear, feel or identify can safely and confidently access male spaces.

But instead of tackling what is a male issue men made it a feminist issue.

And all women have had to become the world's mothers to fix an issue that males caused themselves by telling other males to use women's spaces whenever they wanted to.

By the way Butterfly

I have asked one poster this a few times now and they just seem to ignore it.

When a mixed sex toilet provision is made, and a clearly signed ‘female single sex' toilet is available for the females, will a transitioned male disrespect the needs of those females by entering into that toilet?

And if they do respect it and stay out of the female toilet, what would we be policing if all toilets are configured in such a way, ie. That signage states female only clearly. Surely no ‘policing’ is needed because no males would enter unless they had ill intent

And to be clear. This means ANY transitioned male at any stage of their transition and regardless of how well they believe they pass.

Haha, I think we've seen Butterfly off again 🤣

@ButterflyHatched

Gosh, this thread is terrifying. Everything that I've been fearing for decades seems to actually be happening. I thought it wouldn't happen here in the UK. I thought this was something that only happened in Russia, Eastern Europe or the bible belt states in the US.

I'm now terrified of leaving the house and going anywhere that involves visiting public services. I'm dreading journeys of more than a couple of hours. I'm scared of booking massages and beauty treatments.

Nobody knows I'm trans at work - nobody could know, as I don't look or sound any different to any other woman, I've never told anyone and even my birth certificate now reads correctly - but I'm now similarly terrified that they're going to follow this guidance and put me in an impossible situation. I can't use the men's - I've not been able to do that for decades, it's not safe to do so, and outing myself would ruin the life I've so carefully assembled. I've heard the horrible jokes people tell when they think we aren't around to hear them. I can't face going back to living that every day - not after escaping it once.

I don't understand how we got here. All I've ever wanted was to exist; to be safe, to be normal. I've never hurt anyone.

We child transitioners have been maligned and misunderstood pariahs all our lives, living invisible fear-filled trauma-wracked lives, and with a single - not even legally binding - document, the government has just thrown us to the wolves entirely.

And all this solely because some resources and spaces are to be gatekept for female people while providing additional resources if need be for TW?

Really?

The thing is, female people have been put in impossible situations through this self identification into single sex spaces and no one has cared. No one's minded that they've been excluded, can't use rape crisis, can't go into refuges, can't use loos or go swimming, some have been sexually assaulted and even raped. No one's minded in the least about that, those females have been told things like 're frame your trauma' as some of the mildest bits of insensitivity.

This is ridiculously overdramatic. Female people having their needs met too and not being excluded does not harm TQ+ people.

If the only way it is possible for you to feel safe and happy is for females to be harmed and excluded, do you seriously expect them to just pay this price for you? This is about answers that work for all and not just you.

The next and inclusive step is to start saying to all work places and services that gender neutral spaces must be there for accessibility alongside sex based spaces. And many people will use them, there are plenty of women and men who often say they are lucky enough not to be restricted to a single sex space, parents with opposite sex children, NB people, they will not be in any way outing. Actual accessibility.

And going to a workplace and saying have you seen this guidance, have you thought this through, where is our accessible gender neutral space is not outing anyone either as it is a good and positive inclusion step and something anyone who cares about real diversity and inclusion should be behind.

Totally agree Artichokes, that is the way forward, as it always has been. It is not 'othering', it's providing what females need. Let's have mixed sex option, alongside single sex, not instead of.

Let's have mixed sex option, alongside single sex, not instead of.

And let's have transitioned male show just how much they respect females by using the mixed sex options and leaving female only single sex provisions for all females who want to use them.

Hear hear Helleof!

Also, wouldn't it be useful in this discussion to be able to use terms 'transsexual' and 'transvestite' for clarity, and wasn't that removed after a concerted campaign by Christine Burns? The fact that the law written explicitly for transsexuals got incorrectly applied to some sort of 'umbrella' is the issue, plus the fact the GRA was made deliberately woolly, by the same campaigning group and others. We may not need to repeal the GRA, secondary legislation with 'for sex read gender throughout' might be good though.

ButterflyHatched - is there any reason why you wouldn't support the proposal outlined upthread?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4523860-Single-sex-spaces?msgid=116446702

I do have some confusion. If we make all spaces mixed sex, as the TRA want, could any man who is denied access to a space sue for discrimination on reason of gender? If we are allowing some males in a space, surely denying others due to their gender identity is discrimination?

I'm now terrified of leaving the house and going anywhere that involves visiting public services. I'm dreading journeys of more than a couple of hours.

@ButterflyHatched this how my elderly mother feels. She now won't travel to visit her children and grandchildren as we all live several hours journey away and she is too frightened to use public toilets. She has refused surgery that would potentially vastly improve her quality of life and significantly reduced the pain she is constantly in because she is worried that if she asks for a female nurse she will be labelled a bigot (the surgery would leave her incapacitated and in need of intimate care for several days) she worries that she might be tended by a transwoman or that one might be placed in the ward with her.

I am genuinely sorry that you feel scared but I not prepared for my Mum's feelings to be the price that is paid for you not to feel that way. Can you explain why a frail old lady should be frightened so that you aren't? Why is her fear, her pain acceptable? Why do the wants of transwomen trump those of natal women? Third spaces would make you feel safe and my mum feel safe so why aren't TRAs pressing for them? Why is the preferred solution one that make more people scared rather than the one that makes fewer people scared?

You can't choose a sex. We just are whichever sex we are. The rest is just dressing.

Oof. Ok, firstly, not angry. Just scared and bewildered, and a little lacking in bandwidth right now. The last few weeks have been a bit much.

On the op's proposal re: surgery thresholds i.e. 'you must be this transitioned to use the facilities':

I don't think trying to split us into good trans and bad trans people will help in any meaningful, lasting way - this kind of 'hierarchy of acceptable deviance' just seems to create more unhelpful ways for scared people to lash out at those around them in order to claw some temporary respectability points, and drives dissonance and rivalry within marginalised groups.

The key dilemma for any such proposal remains: What is the actual purpose here? What problem does it solve?

Are penises the problem, are Y chromosomes the problem, is male socialisation the problem, or is there some fundamental essence of maleness that inherently taints all it touches with a single drop?

@Helleofabore - you seem to be asking if trans women would enter a space that has been marked by request in line with recent EHRC guidance to exclude them? The recently issued EHRC guidance reiterates that this is acceptable if a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim.

Is forcing me to humiliatingly and potentially life-threateningly dangerously out myself to every single person in a public space every time I need to go for a piss, at great cost to my own mental health and wellbeing, a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim?

What's the aim? Elimination of trans women from single sex spaces. (Or protection of sex-based rights, if you prefer to use the dogwhistle).
Is it proportionate? You tell me. I've only lived here for a couple of decades.
Are there other reasonable alternatives? Yes. You could...not?

I suppose if the Equality Act 2010 didn't exist then there would no issue here (we'd just be back to having basically no rights or protections) - maybe you ought to campaign against that one next - couple more years of Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times and Guardian headlines under your belt and I reckon you'd manage to force the overton window far enough along to be able to manage it.

With EA2010 in place, however, this guidance appears to be self-contradictory and unenforcable. I think it would largely depend on how self-destructive I was feeling on a daily basis whether I would either bother to challenge it, resign myself to an existence where the dream of not being harrassed daily is just a memory, or just stop existing in public anymore.

They're all pretty grim, really.

@Runningupthecurtains I'm really sorry that this is a daily struggle your mum has to go through. It sounds very difficult for her.

I have no idea how best to help her deal with the reality that there are somewhere between 13,000 and 200,000 trans people living in the UK. It might be the case that there is just no way to balance her needs with the reality of the situation without compromise.

I'm not sure it helps, but if I was working in a patient-facing healthcare environment I would (if it were a realistic and reasonable request) hand over to a non-trans female colleague in such a situation, as I acknowledge my ability to judge my own passability - while borne out by decades of interactions with some extremely unsavoury characters who would not have hesitated to comment over the slightest suspicion - isn't flawless.

I've seen plenty of cis people be 'accused' of being trans over the years, however, so even then false positives must be so hard for your mother to deal with.

@ButterflyHatched

I have no idea how best to help her deal with the reality that there are somewhere between 13,000 and 200,000 trans people living in the UK. It might be the case that there is just no way to balance her needs with the reality of the situation without compromise.

She doesn't have an issue with the fact that trans people exist, she doesn't have a problem with them living in the UK, she isn't some small minded bigot - she has a problem with meeting male bodies in female spaces, she has a problem with asking for care from a female and getting a male instead because it is traumatic for her because she was assaulted in her own bathroom by her own father. Third spaces are the compromise. You still haven't answered why this solution isn't being pushed for. You still haven't said why your need to feel safe trumps her need to feel safe. If the compromise is someone's sense of safety why does yours count more than hers? And that of rape victims? And women from cultural/religious backgrounds that don't allow them to be in intimate setting with strange men? You told us why you think it's not OK for you to use a men's toilet but by opening women's toilets to men that's exactly what you are asking my mother to do. So why is it OK for her to lose the option of a single sex environment when it's not OK for you? Why should every scared, traumatized woman kiss goodbye to their safe spaces so you can keep yours? Why do you get to win and they get to lose?

Are there other reasonable alternatives? Yes. You could...not?

Don't want to use the men's and can't you the ladies then why not use accessable toilets where available and campaign for third spaces?
Again across several threads you haven't told us why third spaces are not a viable compromise? Why should Muslims and rape victims and frightened old ladies stay at home so you can go out? Why are you more important than them?

Third spaces are the clear answer, along with open categories for sport. Any trans person still wanting to access female spaces, I would assume had a nefarious reason for wanting to be there.
I would have used third spaces occasionally if I was out with my young sons before I felt comfortable sending them into the men’s bathrooms (luckily I don’t have to in Australia as we have unisex parents rooms), so it wouldn’t “out” anyone (though honestly, it’s fairly obvious and no “outing” would normally be necessary)

Ugh god that's absolutely rotten. I'm so sorry for her.

I don't want to invade or erode anyone else's spaces. Just exist in mine, which I have done all my adult life and most of my teenage years too.

I think I've already said more than a lifetime's worth on the subject of nipping to the loo at a service station, and it's pretty depressing to discuss the best way to go about eliminating us from public life, so I think we done for now unless there are any more questions?

Third spaces do solve all the problems, I totally agree.
If TRAs had started campaigning for this a few years ago, instead of this insane idea that people can actually physically change sex, everywhere would have male, female and unisex facilities by now. What a waste of time and money it’s been, and the only outcome is that people are now MORE wary of trans people, whereas before this whole debacle, most people would have just turned a blind eye to trans people in their facilities.

[quote ButterflyHatched]@Runningupthecurtains I'm really sorry that this is a daily struggle your mum has to go through. It sounds very difficult for her.

I have no idea how best to help her deal with the reality that there are somewhere between 13,000 and 200,000 trans people living in the UK. It might be the case that there is just no way to balance her needs with the reality of the situation without compromise.

I'm not sure it helps, but if I was working in a patient-facing healthcare environment I would (if it were a realistic and reasonable request) hand over to a non-trans female colleague in such a situation, as I acknowledge my ability to judge my own passability - while borne out by decades of interactions with some extremely unsavoury characters who would not have hesitated to comment over the slightest suspicion - isn't flawless.

I've seen plenty of cis people be 'accused' of being trans over the years, however, so even then false positives must be so hard for your mother to deal with.[/quote]
The reality of the situation is that if you are requiring female people to compromise (by which you do actually seem to mean just to give up and not use that service at all if need be) then TW can be required to compromise too.

Which is what this guidance says, in that some services, resources and facilities can be kept as female only, with alternative and additional services provided for TQ+ people.

This has been necessary because as you demonstrate in your post: TQ+ people are never willing to care or compromise to meet female need and it has become necessary for legal protections for females to be clarified so they are not bounced out of their spaces by their being mixed sex. This may work for you but it does not work for all females . Who are as human as you are and not lower than you in the pecking order.

I get that you would prefer for it to go on working for you at the expense, exclusion and distress of females which has no cost to you personally, but you know what? That is not an acceptable solution. Their distress is as great as yours. Their need is as great as yours. Compromise has to go two ways. Some female service users will only ever be able to have their needs met in a female only provision.

They matter just as much.

Is forcing me to humiliatingly and potentially life-threateningly dangerously out myself to every single person in a public space every time I need to go for a piss, at great cost to my own mental health and wellbeing, a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim?

Your hyperbole and emotional manipulation is right off the charts I can see.

As is your complete lack of self awareness and empathy.

So, we are back talking in circles with you Butterfly. I don’t doubt you think dialing up the emotional manipulation will be a winning argument with readers.

It completely misses the fact that you believe you pass, there will be women and girls who will identify you as male and your presence in a female single sex space will be distressing to them.

But as last year, you only focus on your distress with no thought of the collective group you wish to be acknowledged as. There is a difference.