Single sex spaces

[Notcreativeatall]

Genuine question here
is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing trans people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the trans people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

@Helleofabore

I have been thinking through some of buttflys posts and there are some more issues I wanted to address.

I don't think trying to split us into good trans and bad trans people will help in any meaningful, lasting way - this kind of 'hierarchy of acceptable deviance' just seems to create more unhelpful ways for scared people to lash out at those around them in order to claw some temporary respectability points, and drives dissonance and rivalry within marginalised groups.

Why is this poster telling us that we should not be able to consider that there is 'bad' trans people? Or am I missing something here.

Is there no 'bad' trans people then? We can never consider that any male has the same propensity to commit sex crimes as the other males because of some sacred sub-grouping?

I don't know. I read this as clear acceptance that transwomen need treating as the group of males that they are with all the variability in respect, presentation, risk that entails. Hence all transwomen should not be accepted in female spaces.

Butterfly is better at womening than actual women

This does seem to be a widespread part of the immersive fiction that encompasses IW, Lia Thomas, Emily Bridges, Fallon Fox, Shon Faye, Pippa Bunce (and every other comparable winner of a woman's award), Jane Fae, Montgomerie and so many others.

There can be no degrees of transition, because the TQ+ lobby has not allowed it.

A well known T barrister greeted the news of the trans MP (who continues to use male pronouns and present entirely physically as male) with a demand to know when he (his choice of pronoun) would be welcomed into the women's toilets as was now his entitlement.

I have tried to write something polite to discuss this quite gobsmacking misogyny and lack of empathy, but I can't. I really can't. GTF is the best I can manage.

I still just want Butterfly to explain why them being "distressed" because their own lies (either direct or by omission) would be found out if they used the men's is totally out of the question and must not be allowed to happen but my mum and other vulnerable women just have to suck up their distress that is caused by men entering women's spaces. Butterfly tells us no-one has any idea that they were not born female and therefore they would be at serious risk if they walked into a men's toilet (because men will hurt/rape/kill any woman they are alone in a toilet with??) so the only viable solution is to let men into women's toilets (where presumably by uttering the magic words "I'm a laydeeee" they will be rendered totally safe and harmless). Either it is totally safe for men and women to be in toilets together in which case Butterfly has nothing to fear in the men's or there is a genuine reason for women to fear being in toilets with men in which case men need to stay the hell out of women's toilets. Butterfly can't have it both ways they don't get to be so terrified of men in toilets that they let men into women's toilets.

@Runningupthecurtains

@Runningupthecurtains

I still just want Butterfly to explain why them being "distressed" because their own lies (either direct or by omission) would be found out if they used the men's is totally out of the question and must not be allowed to happen but my mum and other vulnerable women just have to suck up their distress that is caused by men entering women's spaces. Butterfly tells us no-one has any idea that they were not born female and therefore they would be at serious risk if they walked into a men's toilet (because men will hurt/rape/kill any woman they are alone in a toilet with??) so the only viable solution is to let men into women's toilets (where presumably by uttering the magic words "I'm a laydeeee" they will be rendered totally safe and harmless). Either it is totally safe for men and women to be in toilets together in which case Butterfly has nothing to fear in the men's or there is a genuine reason for women to fear being in toilets with men in which case men need to stay the hell out of women's toilets. Butterfly can't have it both ways they don't get to be so terrified of men in toilets that they let men into women's toilets.

Is it not the idea that men will be violent towards TW? (I note that in this narrative, no one talks about whether men will be violent towards women, despite the male-to-female violence ratio/figures being widely available). The answers to which include 1) as someone pointed out to me on another thread, 'gender-bending' men in the 80s used men's loos without being violently attacked, in the main, and 2) if that's the case then we need a conversation about male violence, not to make this women's problem.

@DameHelena
Indeed, but Butterfly is certain that they "pass" and that even close friends have not the slightest idea that they are trans so presumably if they went into the gents any men they meet there would assume them to be a woman because women always think they are a woman.

I see, yes. So they WOULDN’T be attacked because they’re clearly (!) a woman, and men clearly (!) don’t ever attack women? But men do attack TW? But Butterfly is safe because they look exactly like a woman? But needs to use the women’s loos anyway because…
…
Sorry, I’m lost.