Single sex spaces

[Notcreativeatall]

Genuine question here
is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing trans people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the trans people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

You cant have it both ways.

You can't claim that the knowledge that women have that males feelings iverride womens safety isn't something that causes harm to women. Then think that making Annie use the mens will hurt Annie.

You know Annie. No one else does. No one else has consented but you

@Notcreativeatall

*I would not waste a second feeling guilty about Annie" really- you would consciously hurt someone directly and wouldn't feel concerned?

OP what about the schoolgirls or myself in my Annie story?

Whose rights trump whose?

I could say the same about the theoretical women who would be hurt by Annie going in the women's toilets- why should i be a hostage to their feelings

Those women have a right to be there.

Your emotion for your friend means that you've accepted a breach of their boundaries and social conventions.

Safeguarding is not yours to give away.

Question comes back round again:

How many excluded females are needed to equal the consideration given to one male's inclusion?

What's the going rate? How many females equal a male?

Much of the issue of course being that the excluded female people will rarely kick off or draw attention to themselves and their exclusion, but will just quietly slip away. They won't want to upset the person who is displacing them, and if that person comes with female supporters and protectors? You'd have to be a pretty tough kind of person to stand up for yourself against all that.

Most of these excluded females will already be marginalised, and from vulnerable groups. Their inclusion matters too.

Pre-pandemic my 70 odd year old mum came to stay with us so she could do the childcare while I was at work. As a thank you I took her to the theatre on the first night. She meet "Annie" in the ladies and as a result she left without using the loo (her back story here is that her violent, abusive father once kicked their bathroom door in and dragged her out of the bath by her hair because he wanted to use the toilet and rather than vacate the room immediately she was quickly washing her hair). As a result of holding her wee she spent the rest of the week with a major UTI. She then wouldn't leave my house because she needed to wee frequently and was scared of meeting another "Annie". Annie is your dear friend by they aren't mine, or my mother's and they don't belong in female spaces. I feel sorry for Annie because they have been lied to, they have been told they can become a woman but they can't, but I feel more sorry for a traumatized old lady who was too scared to use the toilet. Why do Annie feeling trump those of everyone else?

@Runningupthecurtains

Pre-pandemic my 70 odd year old mum came to stay with us so she could do the childcare while I was at work. As a thank you I took her to the theatre on the first night. She meet "Annie" in the ladies and as a result she left without using the loo (her back story here is that her violent, abusive father once kicked their bathroom door in and dragged her out of the bath by her hair because he wanted to use the toilet and rather than vacate the room immediately she was quickly washing her hair). As a result of holding her wee she spent the rest of the week with a major UTI. She then wouldn't leave my house because she needed to wee frequently and was scared of meeting another "Annie". Annie is your dear friend by they aren't mine, or my mother's and they don't belong in female spaces. I feel sorry for Annie because they have been lied to, they have been told they can become a woman but they can't, but I feel more sorry for a traumatized old lady who was too scared to use the toilet. Why do Annie feeling trump those of everyone else?

Your poor mum, and to add to what you say, whilst many women would be totally okay with a man in the female toilets (I'd be pissed off due to my gender critical beliefs but not afraid) less would be okay about a man in their swimming pool changing rooms (I'd struggle with this), and even less okay with a man on their hospital ward when they are weak, vulnerable, possibly even bed bound, and finally far far far less likely to be okay with having a male in their tiny confined prison cell where it takes hours for anyone to respond to their calls for help, particularly as the majority of females prisons are already the victims of male violence.

This is way we have to be clear, across the board. Men can not be women, and should not be allowed or encouraged to pretend.

I was thinking about your predicament last night OP, Annie obviously needs to be excluded from female single sex spaces before a women or girl gets hurt, but I understand how it might be difficult for you to talk about it.

An idea might be that the next time you are out with them and they go to the loo you take the opportunity to speak to the manager and explain how the EHRC guidance makes it clear that Annie shouldn't be in there, this means that they have speak to them when they come out about having to use the men's and Annie needn't know you were involved.

The questions really that all provisions and services need to be hearing is:

• where is your accessible mixed sex space?

• and where is your female only single sex space?

Both should be provided for.

I could say the same about the theoretical women who would be hurt by Annie going in the women's toilets- why should i be a hostage to their feelings

Because the space is for them, and you, and not your male friends.

Men who have had as much surgery as possible still have male pattern offending.

In addition for many women their faith stops them sharing spaces with males so you render the toilet unavailable.

Many other women are uncomfortable in a space that should be safe space

I think the question should be why does a trans woman want to use women's spaces? What happens to them if they don't?

Men who have had as much surgery as possible still have male pattern offending.

Exactly, they'll find a way - it's in their blood.

Gosh, this thread is terrifying. Everything that I've been fearing for decades seems to actually be happening. I thought it wouldn't happen here in the UK. I thought this was something that only happened in Russia, Eastern Europe or the bible belt states in the US.

I'm now terrified of leaving the house and going anywhere that involves visiting public services. I'm dreading journeys of more than a couple of hours. I'm scared of booking massages and beauty treatments.

Nobody knows I'm trans at work - nobody could know, as I don't look or sound any different to any other woman, I've never told anyone and even my birth certificate now reads correctly - but I'm now similarly terrified that they're going to follow this guidance and put me in an impossible situation. I can't use the men's - I've not been able to do that for decades, it's not safe to do so, and outing myself would ruin the life I've so carefully assembled. I've heard the horrible jokes people tell when they think we aren't around to hear them. I can't face going back to living that every day - not after escaping it once.

I don't understand how we got here. All I've ever wanted was to exist; to be safe, to be normal. I've never hurt anyone.

We child transitioners have been maligned and misunderstood pariahs all our lives, living invisible fear-filled trauma-wracked lives, and with a single - not even legally binding - document, the government has just thrown us to the wolves entirely.

You are angry at the wrong people butterfly

You got away with it and probably would have continued to do so of stonewall didn't advocate that someone who only identified as a woman 2 days a week also should be granted access anywhere and everywhere.

Take it up with them

Women are allowed to say no to males. Get over it.

@ButterflyHatched Why can't you use the gender neutral accessible toilet?

Also why are you angry at women and not the TRAs who amuse themselves by standing in the ladies with a sword or taking selfies in their underwear, or declaring on twitter how turned on they are?

@ButterflyHatched if the time, effort and money that has been put into getting access for any man who says he is a woman to access female spaces had instead been channelled into creating third space you wouldn't have a problem. Those spaces won't "out" you as they wouldn't be trans spaces just mixed spaces for anyone that is happy to use them. I would find them helpful when out with pre teen DS who is too old to come into the ladies.

@ButterflyHatched I'm so sorry. You are the person I was thinking of who is going to be trampled as a result of what is happening. I know someone who because of their appearance faces homophobic/transphobic male violence, just going about their life, doing their job, minding their own business. It's grim. But because the imperfect practical workaround this country arrived at is not good enough for the extreme tra's, women are facing unacceptable violence, harassment and bullying in the many ways outlined on this thread. They are at risk in hospitals and women's prisons. Turned away from refuges and rape crisis centres. Losing their jobs for speaking scientific truth. I can no longer afford to be kind and inclusive, and it saddens me to say that. But it's where we are.
I also feel you are the kind of person who would stay out of the ladies if you knew you were causing distress. Trouble is, there are too many who wouldn't.

@Whatwouldscullydo

You are angry at the wrong people butterfly

You got away with it and probably would have continued to do so of stonewall didn't advocate that someone who only identified as a woman 2 days a week also should be granted access anywhere and everywhere.

Take it up with them

Women are allowed to say no to males. Get over it.

This. If they hadn’t done this butterfly I’d have welcomed you. But these other trans people have made a mockery of your efforts to transition and live your life without hurting anyone but also so you can be your true self. They’ve turned accepting you into accepting anyone male, no matter how bearded, hairy 6 foot, no matter what male gender accoutrements they bring and sexual offender background. And into accepting these people naked, accepting these people while vulnerable, accepting these people taking our place on sporting teams, into our beds, taking our awards for achieving as women. They are the people who have spoiled all this for you, and I’m so sorry.

@Runningupthecurtains you are right of course. Third spaces should have been the focus. Not women's spaces.

Not our problem, we're just interested in protecting women and girls.

No. Because clearly genital inspections are undignified and impractical so how can anyone know whether one particular male has had genital reassignment surgery or not?

I accept that transwomen who actually pass (and who may not have had genital surgery) will use some single sex spaces no matter whether there is legislation or not. That must feel unfair to the vast majority who don't. But that's not women's problem to solve.

Butterfly, you say 'We child transitioners have been maligned and misunderstood pariahs all our lives, living invisible fear-filled trauma-wracked lives'. Who filled your world with fear and trauma? If you're a child transitioner and are living stealth who's traumatising you? The EHRC guidance is for service providers, not employers. You're protected by your characteristic of gender reassignment at work, no one is planning to out you! I, however, will be able to ask for a bearded 'woman' in my female hospital ward to maybe, possibly, please, to be moved to a private room, so I can go to sleep? Will this newly confirmed right to ask for this add to your fear, or perhaps remove some of my PTSD-induced panic without any impact on you?

It is due to the massive overreach by the lobby groups that has now caused this situation. I'm sure genuinely passing transsexuals were happily going about their business before all of this. Now we have a situation where women have been backed into a corner and have been forced to fight back to defend their rights.

We have a ridiculous situation at work where "Dave" (not their real name) who has worked at the company for the past 5+ years as Dave, came into the office after lockdown with long hair and nail polish on.
We were informed by management Dave is Now Davina, despite Davina being 6ft tall and obviously male. Davina now uses the ladies toilets despite having used the mens toilets without issue for the last 5 years. No women were consulted or asked if they were OK with this. The Women are walking to another floor to use a different toilet. My (male) line manager confided in me that of course he knows its wrong as Davina is 'a bloke' but 'what can I do.'

This isn't fair on anyone.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I could say the same about the theoretical women who would be hurt by Annie going in the women's toilets- why should i be a hostage to their feelings

Because the space is for them, and you, and not your male friends.

Cannot be said loud enough!

I've never told anyone and even my birth certificate now reads correctly

No. Your birth certificate has been changed to suit what you want it to reflect.

It does not reflect the facts. You are male and will always be male.

[quote sashh]@ButterflyHatched Why can't you use the gender neutral accessible toilet?

Also why are you angry at women and not the TRAs who amuse themselves by standing in the ladies with a sword or taking selfies in their underwear, or declaring on twitter how turned on they are?[/quote]
This poster has had this discussion with us before on other threads.