Single sex spaces

[Notcreativeatall]

Genuine question here
is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing trans people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the trans people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

@Notcreativeatall

Genuine question here is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing tarns people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the tarns people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

"All the surgery etc." - by which I assume you mean removal of penis and testicles? They would still be male, and thus "male-bodied". 'Male-bodied' isn't a euphemism for an intact male, even with his external genitals removed he will retain his height, muscular strength etc. It means their body in it's entirety is male.

We have been forced into using convoluted language to close down the loopholes.

You seem to be using a very narrowly-defined notion of "threat". Just because they have no penis with which to rape, they still have their height / reach / strength with which they could intimidate, and, if they felt like it, sexually assault or pulverise a woman. The only 'threat' that has been removed is the threat of pregnancy. Note also that they were subjected all their lives to male socialisation, so as well as height / reach / strength, they will have entitlement.

Let's assume this hypothetical surgically-altered male is absolutely no physical threat at all. Does that mean he can enter a female-only space? The answer is still no. A single-sex space is there to not just remove threat, but also to provide privacy and dignity. Women have a right to both. A male swanning in to a female space makes most women uncomfortable because their privacy and dignity have been breached.

Serious question, @Notcreativeatall - what about the women who will be driven from their single-sex spaces if your hypothetical male is allowed entry? The women who have been sexually assaulted (a hefty percentage of all women) or who are of a religion that forbids sharing spaces with males not of their family. Are these women to be subject to the 'urinary leash' of never being able to be in public spaces for longer than their bladder can accommodate?

No.

I have a great deal of sympathy for those who go as far as to have bottom surgery but I don't think they can safely be included in female spaces.

Ignoring the potential for abuse of the system or criminal behaviour which others have addressed.

When it comes to hospital wards, intimate examinations, swimming pool/gym changing rooms, strip searches etc part of the issue is the old "we all have the same parts" thing. There is a level of reassurance that everyone is female and has female parts and is the same. It isn't about sexual attraction it is about being naked around others the same as you. A transwoman isn't the same even after surgery and shouldn't be in the female space. Inclusion of women of faith and survivors of sexual violence is important and those women deserve as much consideration as transwomen, they shouldn't be sacrificed for the benefit of men who present as women.

I'm less concerned about public loos and shop changing cubicles, I think safe gender neutral is the way forward and where that is not practical a third space.

Prisons I think are different again and physical power and offending behaviour is also a factor. Probably some kind of special unit third space might be the answer.

The thing is why is Annie your responsibility? If their well being and friendship depends on you pretending along side them then that's a pretty shaky foundation. Either they are so fragile they need help because making these demands of people is extremely unreasonable and emotional black mail..

Or they are getting off on controlling the narrative. Knowing you are having to think about every word you say and every action in case you slip up. Of someone dictated what you wear or what you ate wheb you went out you'd think them controlling.

But make you lie to yourelf and change the meaning if words inside your head? That's apparently acceptable. I dont see a difference tbh its power and control. Why do you feel you have to? If its because you have been.condotioned to " be komd" it's time to re evaluate your attitude and stand up fir yourself. If you are worried about their reaction why? Is it not their responsibility to seek the tools to deal.with the world around them.

Do you view yourself as a collection of feelings inside a man's head? Because that's what you say when you go along with it.

@Notcreativeatall

My point was that a lot of the arguments for single sex spaces do discuss the threat that men create either from the fact that men are more likely to assault women than female or the fact that having a different body creates. I do think the whole self ID thing has changed things- not just because it attempts to include people with penises as women- massively expands the population I just feel somewhat conflicted as a friend of mine is trans and when we meet socially i could no more suggest that Annie goes to a male toilet/gets kicked out of the female than i could insist on using male pronouns- its like we as a group ascribe to the fiction that Annie is female but it would just seem petty -probably similar to timeisnotaline at work - but i have no real reason to know that Annie has had the surgery I am just conflicted- i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?

WWYD? In the immediate future, I'd start suggesting meeting socially in establishments that have gone for 'gender neutral' - i.e. mixed sex - toilets. There's enough of them! They are unlikely to be frequented by women who NEED single-sex facilities, so you won't be subjecting the women not in your group to an unexpected male in their toilets. Every women using such a place will know in advance that the toilets are mixed-sex.

In the longer term, I think you should have a ponder on whether you are happy to be used in this way. Your acceptance of their use of female toilets is validation to them, and you are also a bit of a human shield. There's a bit of power-play in place, isn't there? Annie gets what he wants and you get conflicted.

‘I am just conflicted- i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?’

It’s just guilt. I would avoid the friendship because however much I liked someone, I wouldn’t be able to pretend I thought they had changed sex and I wouldn’t want the conflict.

Notcreative, I'm interested in wwyd if Annie was challenged in the toilets by another woman in your presence. Would you stay quiet or feel the compunction to stand up for Annie and argue for Annie's right to use female-only space?

No, of course not. Men who've undergone castration are still men. Men who've undergone penectomy are still men.

Women aren't just men without willies.

Notcreative, I'm interested in wwyd if Annie was challenged in the toilets by another woman in your presence. Would you stay quiet or feel the compunction to stand up for Annie and argue for Annie's right to use female-only space?

And what would you do if Annie showed up with their friend Sandra. You hadn't met Sandra before and didn't really get on through dinner...

Because of new EHRC guidance, I intend to challenge any infringement of female space from now on. So you need to prepare yourself for that situation - Annie will feel betrayed if you don't stand up for her 'rights', you'll lose her as a friend anyway. Would it not be better for the group to start thinking how to explain to Annie that her understanding of the law was incorrect, and she has no right to use female spaces. That would be true friendship in my opinion, but as someone v clever wrote 'it's much harder to stand up to your friends than your enemies' (sorry for bastardized quite).

i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?

There is a hell of a lot of 'not my Nigel' going on in this debate as a whole.

It doesn't matter how lovely your friend is OP. They do not have the right to compel other females to participate in the fiction that they are female, nor to exclude females from having any facility in order to take their preferred choice of facilities. The whole problem has been, there is no way to say yes to Annie, and no to Karen White. There isn't. It's been tried, the GRA is a compromise.

What is needed is third mixed sex spaces. Annie can use those, not have to use male sex based provision if they would prefer not to, and I'm sure you and other members of the group would use them too. Plenty of women will. The thing is, Annie is not more important than the females who need single sex to mean single sex.

And the wobbly boundaries have led to the horrors of women being raped. Individual emotive cases can't be a part of this any more .

A castrated man is still physically stronger than a woman.

Absolutely no biological males in the changing rooms, for the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls.

It's a hill I'm willing to die on.

I worked with an Annie.

He was about a foot taller than every other woman in that workplace. And taller than most of the other men. He had a physical job and was head of a department.

He had not had any surgery and was quite open about how his consultations and progress was going.

He came into work one day when he had a days leave, to look at a report. He had gingham rara skirt, hair in plaits with gingham ties, white stockings and a frilly neckline. He still had his penis. We were an open site with school tours almost every day.

How do you square this off?

Should he be using the site toilets which school girls also used? What about when dressed as Little Bo Peep on a day off? Where do you even start trying to unpick the suitability of a staff member turning up on a day off dressed like this? Is it a kink, is it a fetish or did he genuinely think he was Little Bo Peep? Or should he be allowed to wear what he wants?

Personally i had to sit there with him as he looked through the report. I felt so uncomfortable that words could not explain. Why should i be made to feel this at work?

Whose rights trump whose?

Me as a staff member, the school girls, or him?

I can guarantee no woman i have ever worked with, has ever dressed up as nursery rhyme character and come into work. So why should he be allowed to just because he wants to?

i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?

If "Annie" cared for the safety of women and girls he'd use the men's facilities - he doesn't sound like someone I'd be friends with.

I don't want to set arbitrary rules to allow or deny transwomen into single sex spaces for women. I especially don't want the bar to be surgery.
The default is and should be segregation by sex where appropriate with unisex facilities if it's not an issue, or as well as - such as toilets and changing rooms.
Whilst I might on a personal level feel ok with a trans friend in my spaces, I don't speak for everyone. They're not my rights to give away.

I don't even care if it's a fetish or not anymore, I've run out of fucks to give. The law has been clarified. No men in women's spaces if women object. I object to men in every single space I feel vulnerable, loos included, and intend to communicate it clearly and persistently, in writing, to every service provider allowing this, cc'ing my MP and Kemi Badenoch. I'm sure some helpful legal feminist organisation will have templates soon enough, separate for private providers and public services like NHS!

I don't want to set arbitrary rules to allow or deny transwomen into single sex spaces for women. I especially don't want the bar to be surgery.
The default is and should be segregation by sex where appropriate with unisex facilities if it's not an issue, or as well as - such as toilets and changing rooms.
Whilst I might on a personal level feel ok with a trans friend in my spaces, I don't speak for everyone. They're not my rights to give away.

I agree with this. Wherever you draw the line, there will be people very close to it who will argue it should be bent for them. TRAs are even doing this with actual biological sex, ffs - claiming that various chromosome disorders means that man or woman isn't "fully" male or female.

Stick to your sex. Join the campaign against male violence if that's the issue for you.

@LK1972

I don't even care if it's a fetish or not anymore, I've run out of fucks to give. The law has been clarified. No men in women's spaces if women object. I object to men in every single space I feel vulnerable, loos included, and intend to communicate it clearly and persistently, in writing, to every service provider allowing this, cc'ing my MP and Kemi Badenoch. I'm sure some helpful legal feminist organisation will have templates soon enough, separate for private providers and public services like NHS!

The sooner they're out of our spaces the better.

Not👏one👏more👏assault👏on👏a👏woman👏or👏girl

The political lobby have made it very clear there cannot be a rule for one and not for another based on surgery: as they ask, often, who is going to do genital checks on the door of every female space?

And the answer will be from many male people, the same one as male people have often told women here: I don't care about your boundaries, if I want to use that space I will.

The only answer is to return to legally gatekept spaces in law, and provide extra provision for trans people. They cannot have (and by doing so remove and destroy) female spaces.

Not👏one👏more👏assault👏on👏a👏woman👏or👏girl

That. Absolutely that.

@timeisnotaline

Not respectable! Respectful, as in of women and people in general. Ie a perfectly normal person.

Respectable is a good word to use here, too!

Respectable sounds like the vicar’s son in the 18th century

@LK1972

I don't even care if it's a fetish or not anymore, I've run out of fucks to give. The law has been clarified. No men in women's spaces if women object. I object to men in every single space I feel vulnerable, loos included, and intend to communicate it clearly and persistently, in writing, to every service provider allowing this, cc'ing my MP and Kemi Badenoch. I'm sure some helpful legal feminist organisation will have templates soon enough, separate for private providers and public services like NHS!

It is not at all clear that the law has specified this with regard to toilets. Someone on Twitter (but a real someone, I just forget who!) has posted a great breakdown of the guidance and reasonable interpretations, and in the women’s toilets example you still have to demonstrate impact on the transwoman- so if there’s a gender neutral toilet also the impact is minimal, in the situation there isn’t it takes into consideration the distress it would cause a transwoman to use the men’s, and the relative privacy afforded by individual cubicles in the toilet block, and it sounded to me like it would often conclude that it is reasonable for our hypothetical transwoman to use the women’s. I’m just saying… don’t shoot the messenger. Personally it is not the hill I’m planning to die on, it is the most marginal of the many common situations as as others say, 10 years ago I wouldn’t have questioned it, not because I was ‘kind’ but because it predated all these nutty extreme views where rational thought has been left as roadkill, so we only knew/knew of trans people as normal people, not extremists trying to erase women and destroy lives.

@timeisnotaline

Respectable sounds like the vicar’s son in the 18th century

I'd rather have him around me than Grace!